Patriotism and Atheism

[madprofessor]

I guess this only applies to Americans. Are there any patriotic atheists out there? I feel that I could never become a patriot or love all things American as an atheist. To me, trying to preserve American culture and American tradition automatically includes religion. Maybe it's because the people who tend be patriotic are also religious (God Bless America, etc, etc.). Does anyone else feel slightly threatened by American patriotism?

[The Bearded One]

I am a non-patriotic American for an entirely separate reason. Patriotism is a lot like faith: Faith that your country is the best/special/unique/etc. I have lived in two other countries in my youth, and I've traveled around the world a half-dozen times. So I know that the only reason America is given special attention is because it has the biggest military/economic muscles. That doesn't make it the best in my book.

-- The Bearded One

[Viti]

I am a non-patriotic American for an entirely separate reason. Patriotism is a lot like faith: Faith that your country is the best/special/unique/etc. I have lived in two other countries in my youth, and I've traveled around the world a half-dozen times. So I know that the only reason America is given special attention is because it has the biggest military/economic muscles. That doesn't make it the best in my book.

-- The Bearded One

I consider myself a patriot. It's natural, to me, to love and defend your homeland even if it sucks sometimes...sort of like family.

[chestercopperpot]

I am very much a patriot. I may not support the current administration, but I am always trying to make the country that I reside in better, whether that would be by voting, donating money to causes that I support, or other actions.

And being a patriot does not mean that you are trying to preserve American culture. Actually, in a lot of cases, it is quite the opposite. There are many aspects of American culture that I would like to see done away with, especially with regard to religion, sexuality, violence, gas-guzzling motor vehicles, among others.

And if I were to move to Australia or any other country, my attitude would be the same, as in trying to make the country that I reside in better. Of course, this would not be much of a problem for me, since I don't have an "America's interests first over the world's best interests" attitude, as a lot of Americans do, as I am for free trade, abiding by the UN, and so forth. Though I highly doubt that I would move to another country, unless the Republicans establish a theocracy.

[Ab_Normal]

I consider myself a patriot. It's natural, to me, to love and defend your homeland even if it sucks sometimes...sort of like family.
Before my brother straightened out his life, I sometimes despaired for him, and he was hard to be around. (Fortunately, his third trip through rehab did the trick, and he's under a psychiatrist's care.) Nowadays, I feel the same about the US... dang it, how are we going to straighten things out? We've got one of the best frameworks for a country (the Constitution), but the execution has gotten real sloppy.

[maddog]

Count me as a True Believer Patriot. The USA was the first country which purported to derive its powers "from the consent of the governed." The cardboard cartoon cutout version of American history we learned in school "should" lead American schoolkids to realize that one of our most fundamental and cherished ideals is liberty, particularly liberty of conscience, and particularly liberty of conscience w/r/t religious matters, and most particularly liberty of conscience for the minority. IOW, it's the first country where it "should" be perfectly OK to be an atheist, and to recognize that atheists' conscientiously held views are equally deserving of protection with everyone else's. THAT's what it means to be an "American," even if the religionists often forget.

[Puck]

Count me as a Patriot. But don't count me as blind.

I love this Country, because I've done a little bit of studying our roots. Our Founding Framers/Fathers were amazing and the gift they gave us these many years out is nothing short of stunning.

However, greedy lying bastards have been mucking it up, and gullible masses aren't paying attention and defending our Foundations. Danger, danger, danger.

I hope we don't totally f*ck it up before it's too late. I hope it's not too late already.

[Gothic_J]

I guess this only applies to Americans. Are there any patriotic atheists out there? I feel that I could never become a patriot or love all things American as an atheist. To me, trying to preserve American culture and American tradition automatically includes religion. Maybe it's because the people who tend be patriotic are also religious (God Bless America, etc, etc.). Does anyone else feel slightly threatened by American patriotism?

Im a marine. what do you think?

Im very patriotic in my way, which is perhaps why Im so opposed to theocracy.

[cjack]

I love this Country, because I've done a little bit of studying our roots. Our Founding Framers/Fathers were amazing and the gift they gave us these many years out is nothing short of stunning.




That's what I was thinking.

I consider myself to be a patriot because I'm all gung-ho for the ideal that America represents, even if I'm a bit suspicious of the current leadership.

If being a patriot means that you love where you live and would lay your life on the line to protect it, then count me in.

[Darwin26]

i love my country like an adult ... but sadly my service to this country was in an illegal senseless war ...just like the crap we're in now...
i am the atheist patriot. During all the s--t in Viet Nam we didn't have fox-holes for some mythical Gawd to hide Its slimmy ass in ... and sadly the current admin talks to gawd... who thinks gawd is on his side ... This is fanaticism at it's finest . And what is the difference between a fanatic and an insane person ??? Nothing. These are the people who love their country like it was 'mommy' ... these are the scoundrals who find refuge in patriotism ... just check out Cheenee's military service...for a quick sample.
It would be patriotic for me to be in the firing squad of these thugs and fanatic scoundrals.

[Speedy-Lube]

I think of being anit-patriotic as similar to "not betting on your own team".

I am very patriotic, but an atheist. Remember that every patriotic American thinks THEIR views are the only patriotic ones. Is welfare patriotic? Is owning arms patriotic?

Why is religion so special that it is the demographic where the majority opinion gets to be absolute? Do you have to be Protestant to be patriotic? Or just Christian? Can John Ashcroft be patriotic? Can a Mormon? What is a Christian? The jury is still out on that last one.

Remember also, America is 200 years old. That is a drop in the historical bucket. It's not too late for you to put America on the path to becoming more atheistic, when you really think about it. What traditions are there that say we are a religious nation? Where is that (literally) written in stone? Is Egyptian culture defined by Ra, Pyramids, or papyrus paper? Is English culture defined and reckognized by Monty Python?

Everyone comes from a state in this world. No one can make you love your country of origin, nor any other. Just remember that a lot of Atheists live in the US, and I for one think it is a country worth fighting for.

So at the risk of sounding patriotic, either do something about it, or go somewhere else.

[American Humanist]

I'm a fairly patriotic atheist/agnostic. I'm proud of my country but I think that purely nationalistic thinking is fundementally flawed and archaic.

One of the problems in the US today is that patriotism is often associated with religious (specifially christian) belief. The church has noting to do with the desire to the prosparity and defense of the state.

[Kevin]

I guess this only applies to Americans. Are there any patriotic atheists out there? I feel that I could never become a patriot or love all things American as an atheist. To me, trying to preserve American culture and American tradition automatically includes religion. Maybe it's because the people who tend be patriotic are also religious (God Bless America, etc, etc.). Does anyone else feel slightly threatened by American patriotism?
I don't. I consider myself a patriotic American and atheist. That said, patriotism is not necessarily jingoism. I certainly don't hold that I have to agree with all the public policies of our current administration (and I disagree with most) simply to be considered a patriot. That's jingoism. On the contrary, I value the fact that I live in a country where I'm free to express my disagreement on the internet, through the press, by going to Meetups, pamphleting, etc. Granted, a full and frank examination of history will show that the government has often failed to live up to the full promise of the Constitution, but we have one advantage in that corrective organizations, like the ACLU, outside the government can take the government to court and force its hand. In my opinion, true patriotism, rather than mere jingoism, can encompass heated criticism of the government, as long as it stems from a desire to make the fact of American government live up to the Constitutional ideal.

Edit: Ironically, patriotism is the topic on Al Franken's radio show right now, and he's covering much of what I'm saying here.

[madprofessor]

I think of being anit-patriotic as similar to "not betting on your own team".

I am very patriotic, but an atheist. Remember that every patriotic American thinks THEIR views are the only patriotic ones. Is welfare patriotic? Is owning arms patriotic?

Why is religion so special that it is the demographic where the majority opinion gets to be absolute? Do you have to be Protestant to be patriotic? Or just Christian? Can John Ashcroft be patriotic? Can a Mormon? What is a Christian? The jury is still out on that last one.

Remember also, America is 200 years old. That is a drop in the historical bucket. It's not too late for you to put America on the path to becoming more atheistic, when you really think about it. What traditions are there that say we are a religious nation? Where is that (literally) written in stone? Is Egyptian culture defined by Ra, Pyramids, or papyrus paper? Is English culture defined and reckognized by Monty Python?

Everyone comes from a state in this world. No one can make you love your country of origin, nor any other. Just remember that a lot of Atheists live in the US, and I for one think it is a country worth fighting for.

So at the risk of sounding patriotic, either do something about it, or go somewhere else.

Unfortanetly our "team" tends to dislike us. I have found that the general attitude of people--even those who aren't very religious--is that it is better to be a member of any religion than an atheist. Because of this, I don't feel any type of solidarity with most Americans. True, it isn't too late to make the U.S. more atheistic, but are you still a patriot if you try? Can a patriot be disliked/feared by a majority of the population? Maybe, the country is a bit more liberal than I think it is, but most people who are trying to move the country forward are seen as being anti-American. In a way, they're not patriots because they aren't proud of the way the country is now, but in a way, they are because they have faith in their country and believe it can get better.

[mamabear]

I am very much a patriot. I may not support the current administration, but I am always trying to make the country that I reside in better, whether that would be by voting, donating money to causes that I support, or other actions.

And being a patriot does not mean that you are trying to preserve American culture. Actually, in a lot of cases, it is quite the opposite. There are many aspects of American culture that I would like to see done away with, especially with regard to religion, sexuality, violence, gas-guzzling motor vehicles, among others.

And if I were to move to Australia or any other country, my attitude would be the same, as in trying to make the country that I reside in better. Of course, this would not be much of a problem for me, since I don't have an "America's interests first over the world's best interests" attitude, as a lot of Americans do, as I am for free trade, abiding by the UN, and so forth. Though I highly doubt that I would move to another country, unless the Republicans establish a theocracy.


I second that....could not have said it better myself.... :)

[Al Kafirun]

I'm American, love America, love American history for better or worse, HATE American religious culture which is gradually consuming everything else American. Someday America will be 90% homosexual, non-white, etc and 100% fundamentalist protestant controlled. LOL Its sickening.

[Rhaedas]

I'm like a lot of you, and view patriotism as not blind support of the powers than be, but of belief in the ideals that this country was originally founded on, primarily the Bill of Rights. Right now, I am sick of, and embarrassed of my country and its behavior, both currently and in the recent past. I'm not sure when we lost the original vision, but it's been long enough so that the current population thinks status quo is okay.

Is religion the problem? I don't think so...I think it's a tool in the destruction, but as frequently brought up*, the framers were religious in various degrees, and yet designed the foundation for a country where any belief, even atheists, could be protected. If backing that foundation and believing in "liberty and justice for all" is patriotic, then yes I am. If partiotic is being a cheerleader for the administration without any skepticism, then hell ,no.

* ironically in support of a theocracy

[McNamara]

Here's another patriotic atheist in the military. I'm not fiercely nationalistic, but I do believe we've got a good system here that's worth protecting. By the way, I swore to uphold and defend the Constitution, not the administration or the ruling party or any of that bullshit. So should the day ever arrive when they order me to do something un-Constitutional, I would consider my most patriotic act to be insubordination. The Constitution is at the top of my chain of command, as it is for every other serviceman. Hopefully we'll always remember that.

[Darwin26]

Thanks Mac, ... for the last couple of years, the thought that Bush & Co would suspend the constitution was real and SPIKING in my brain. As a Vet i know what it means to already have the TROOPS DEPLOYED ... it would not, could not happen to CALL them up to stage such a novel approach to Gov't...but 'already deployed' ... the abilty to move troops anywhere with out the soldiers knowledge of why or where is REAL. Seven Days in May.
It is GOOD to know that there are soldiers like you who are there to up-hold the constitution ... not some lame derelict 'capt'n'/ie President .
You do the name of Daniel Ellsberg good sir. The link explains how, what, why, when the practice of deciet and lies weaves a tale of senseless carnage and sorrow.
http://www.vva.org/pentagon/history/history.html

[AspenMama]

-- Moved from SL.

[King Rat]

As usual I'd like some defintions. :)

If you are talking Patriotism, oh yeah. I fly the flag, I was in ROTC, I believe in the constitution, hand over the heart (I skip the "under god" crap) father was in the Navy and I came this close >< to joining the Navy myself, blah, blah, blah...

If you are talking Nationalism, no freakin' way. The "my country right or wrong" folks need to move to Cuba.

Increasingly, I feel like the country I owe my allegiance to, no longer exists. The country I'd fight and die for is not the same country that Bush runs. Those aren't my ideals motherfucker. :mad:

[Secular Jeff]

Here's another patriotic atheist in the military. I'm not fiercely nationalistic, but I do believe we've got a good system here that's worth protecting. By the way, I swore to uphold and defend the Constitution, not the administration or the ruling party or any of that bullshit. So should the day ever arrive when they order me to do something un-Constitutional, I would consider my most patriotic act to be insubordination. The Constitution is at the top of my chain of command, as it is for every other serviceman. Hopefully we'll always remember that.

Excellent post, Mac! My sentiments exactly. I was an Air Force officer for almost 12 years and I have been a civilian employee of the Air Force (civil service) for the past 10 and a half years.


Jeff

[Silent Acorns]

I think that patriotism, while laudable in its ideal form, is too susceptible to nationalistic corruption in practice to make me conformable with it. I like my country a lot, but I can't say that I would die for it. Sure I'd be willing to fight against an invading Nazi Horde, but that's because our collective human rights and quality of life would be at stake.

I value my country's institutions only as much as they protect human rights and encourage improvement in the human condition. Beyond that and a few emotional sports related hangups, I don't think there's anything inherently special about my country.

[Worldtraveller]

...and one it seems many of us agree on.
Unfortunately, I think the vast majority of 'murkins don't or can't tell the difference between patriotism, and nationalism.
So here's to the patriotic, NON nationalistic athiests out there, count me as one among you for sure!
I grew up in the service, but I wouldn't serve. Unless things change significantly, the military is much too much nationalistic for me, and not nearly patriotic enough. (With a few notable exceptions - <salute> McNamara)
So I know what our people in uniform do for our country, and appreciate the sacrifices, but I could never blindly follow orders, and the military doesn't take well to questions, expecially intelligent questions. :p
Cheers,
Lane

[joedad]

Like King Rat said, so long as you don't equate patriotism with nationalism, I'm in.

I'm patriotic about the Earth as a whole, not anyone's claimed piece or pieces thereof. Guess that comes from reading Pale Blue Dot, and frequenting the backcountry too often.

[McNamara]

Thanks for the support. I haven't yet come across an order that I believed was un-Constitutional or immoral, and hopefully I never will. If I do, hopefully I'll have the guts to do what's right.

If you'll excuse me, I'm going to get a little off-topic here, but it has to do with the mindset of the military.

I think alot of officers put their career first. That's not to say that they're all backstabbers (some are), just that sometimes the first thing they think about when making a decision is, "What's good for my career?" rather than "What's right?" Career-mindedness is somewhat encouraged by ready-room discussions. People talk about what assignments will help them get promoted in the future, which path might stall their rise in the ranks, etc. You don't often hear people discussing ethical issues.

It's a little easier for me to put career-affecting decisions to the ethical test because I actually don't want to stay in more than ten years (and that's how long I'm obligated to stay in, due to the expense of flight training). As soon as I can leave, I'm out of there. So I don't have to worry about what's good for my career, only what I want and what I think is right.

But I haven't been tested yet, so I'm just talking big. Hopefully I can back up my words with action if the time ever comes.

[Speedy-Lube]

The impression I get is that most Christians beleive the nation is "going to hell" and full of liberalness and evil. Yet they remain patriotic.

I don't see why I can't also disagree with a lot of people in this country and still love it.

But it doesn't do any of us any good to just complain. I believe if you think there is a better way you go out and tell people that. Help change the country, otherwise you are not hurting anyone but your fellow non-believers.

[arthurshiraz]

I have lived in two other countries in my youth, and I've traveled around the world a half-dozen times. So I know that the only reason America is given special attention is because it has the biggest military/economic muscles. That doesn't make it the best in my book.

So what happened? I mean if other countries were better why didn't you choose to settle there? Any legal restrictions perhaps?

-A Patriot who spent 2/3rd of his life overseas in various countries.

[Craigart14]

I feel pretty lucky to be an American. Not proud; it was only an accident of birth, after all. I would feel lucky to be a Brit, a Canadian, an Aussie, a Kiwi, etc., because democracy is worth working for, though it's not perfect and can, like any other human institution, be misused and corrupted. Too many people seem to forget that the only difference between majority rule and mob rule is the framework of values, codified into law, that allow a system of checks and balances to function. We have a chance, come November, to get rid of the Bush administration and, perhaps more importantly, all its born-again appointees who lied to get our support in an illegal war and who apparently came into power with the intention of "getting" Saddam--or Saddam's oil. I'll bet the North Koreans would like a chance to vote themselves into South Korean lifestyles by getting rid of Kim Jong Il. I do predict, though, that an Iraqui democracy will be just as big a disaster as South Vietnamese democracy was. Without an educated electorate, the mob will rule. Without a truly free press and religious freedom, the mob will be deluded into thinking it rules. Democracy is not a goal of Islam.

I guess I'm a patriot because I belive in the American values the founding fathers--nearly all men of property and education--put on paper. Sometimes we have to defend those values from warriors without and idiots within.

Craig

[krazykatlady]

Well, I consulted good ol' dictionary.com & here is their definition of patriotism (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=patriotism). Cambridge is no better: patriotism definition (http://dictionary.cambridge.org/define.asp?key=58085&dict=CALD) & same w/ Merriam-Webster: patriotism definition (http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=patriotism)
If one uses those (pretty vague, IMO) definitions of patriotism, count me in. I'll stand up for the ideals put forth by our Founding Fathers. However, you won't find me w/ gaudy flags on my car or singing "God Bless America."
Ange =^..^=

[fr8trainman]

I am an American patriot. I love my country and the ideals she stands for. No, we Americans not perfect. But to quote Mary Poppins (forgive me!), I feel we're closer to "practically perfect in every way" than many other places.

I see the Bill of Rights/Constitution/etc., separation of church and state, 3- branch gov't system, evolving ever more-inclusive tolerance, and classical philosophical heritage as a large part of what makes the USA a great place to be. The greatness of a nation depends upon the effort and sincerity of her citizens. I do my best to take part and represent as an American atheist.

And no, I'm not tryin' to dis those from Canada, UK, or other nations--I hope you all have pride in the greatness & good and work to change the bad wherever you are, too.


Happiness,

Fr8trainman

[The Bearded One]

I have lived in two other countries in my youth, and I've traveled around the world a half-dozen times. So I know that the only reason America is given special attention is because it has the biggest military/economic muscles. That doesn't make it the best in my book.
So what happened? I mean if other countries were better why didn't you choose to settle there? Any legal restrictions perhaps?

-A Patriot who spent 2/3rd of his life overseas in various countries.

Like nearly everyone else, I'm my nationality by accident of birth. Both of my parents are American; they took me overseas when my father got his oil company jobs in the middle east. I also returned to the US when they did -- I was 13. I've been going to school or working ever since (though I've vacationed outside the US twice since then).

There are lots of other countries that I'd be just as pleased to live in: Canada, UK, Holland, Norway, Sweden, Finland, Denmark, Switzerland, India, S. Korea, Japan, Australia, NZ, and possibly others.

There are lots of other countries that I'd be rather unhappy to live in: Columbia, Italy, Georgia, Iran, Bangladesh, Somalia, PR China, Mongolia, Indonesia, and possibly others.

I think that the world is gradually secularizing and we freethinkers are ahead of the curve. Similarly, I think that the world will gradually de-nationalize -- that national borders will become obsolete -- and that I am ahead of the curve in considering myself a citizen of the Earth.

-- The Bearded One

[ElectEngr]

Not this lilly white boy.....

I got my f[censored] ass thrown out of the f[censored] unites states f[censored] air force for being f[censored] overweight. All because I stood up against the squadron senior officers when it came to a racial discrimination case brought fourth by a fellow officer.

The guy I was helping came back with "I don't know nothin' about birthin' no babies, mas'sa"

I will never lift a finger (well maybe one) to defend this f[censored] country again.

Later,
ElectEngr

[McNamara]

I will never lift a finger (well maybe one) to defend this f[censored] country again.
Why? Because you happened to be in a squadron with a bunch of assholes? What did you expect from the Air Farce, man?

Man, I've worked under some real losers, but I didn't expect everyone to be nice and respectful when I joined up. At least in my experience the good officers balance out the bad ones.

[Godless Dave]

Count me as a True Believer Patriot. The USA was the first country which purported to derive its powers "from the consent of the governed." The cardboard cartoon cutout version of American history we learned in school "should" lead American schoolkids to realize that one of our most fundamental and cherished ideals is liberty, particularly liberty of conscience, and particularly liberty of conscience w/r/t religious matters, and most particularly liberty of conscience for the minority. IOW, it's the first country where it "should" be perfectly OK to be an atheist, and to recognize that atheists' conscientiously held views are equally deserving of protection with everyone else's. THAT's what it means to be an "American," even if the religionists often forget.

What he said. Maybe I'm naive, but I bought the ideals the United States was founded on. I never had any illusions that we realize these ideals fully, or that full realization is even possible, or that everything in the Constitution is perfect, but I believe in government by the people, individual liberty, and free enterprise to the extent it doesn't infringe on the first two things.

People can talk all they want about how the founders believed our rights are granted by some god or other, and maybe most of them did. But they didn't put it in the Constitution, so it doesn't matter.

[dendrast]

I am patriotically Canadian. I have always been atheistic, so , to me, love of my country is not a default position for losing my religion. In Canada, the default religion is watching hockey and drinking beer. No empires built, but no harm done, either.

[Samnell]

I'm not at all patriotic, and rather like it that way. I don't think a nation-state, in and of itself, is deserving of allegiance any more than a religious organization. I have various ethical principles and political opinions I care about and try to see advanced, but those are unrelated to any particular state.

I like to consider myself an advocate for all intelligent life. Maybe one of these days we'll import a goodly supply from somewhere.

[Obey_Matthew_6_6]

I guess this only applies to Americans. Are there any patriotic atheists out there? I feel that I could never become a patriot or love all things American as an atheist. To me, trying to preserve American culture and American tradition automatically includes religion. Maybe it's because the people who tend be patriotic are also religious (God Bless America, etc, etc.). Does anyone else feel slightly threatened by American patriotism?I don't see where religion has anything to do with pride and support of one's country. In fact, xians are supposed to put their gawd FIRST above all things, which would put citizenship second.

I consider myself patriotic, but definitely not the lockstep "with us or against us" bull$$$4t "patriotism" of Ashcroft. This is one atheist that served 21 years in the military, seven of those serving in the White House (non-political assignment split between Bush 41 and Clinton), the remainder in intelligence and arms control. I didn't need "gawd" to "bless" me with these assignments; I earned them with my abilities and hard work.

I can't help but be proud of a Constitution that has kept the wolves of theism at bay for over two centuries, and the founders that had the wisdom to foresee the many ways they would try to destroy our freedoms.

[Darwin26]

Nice Post Matt6/6 ---if only the majority were like us...unfortunately the one-celled religionists (world wide) keep tauting their myoptic miasma ... doesn't matter if it's worshipping elephant dung in Africa or kissing a cross in America... they're sick demented ways are trying to make the rest us equate some Unicorn with patriotism.
Even in Viet Nam... the chaplains told the 'Grunts' "Cod is on our side" !!! slimy pathetic monsters .

[Eudaimonist]

I guess this only applies to Americans. Are there any patriotic atheists out there? I feel that I could never become a patriot or love all things American as an atheist.

Why should being patriotic mean "loving all things American"?

I love America's tradition of individual rights and limited government, and I regard that as patriotic. However, I certainly don't love ALL things about America.

[xxthe_leewitxx]

I find myself feeling more patriotic as I read this biography of Thomas Jefferson that I'm in the middle of. Certainly not patriotic as in "the lockstep "with us or against us" bull$$$4t "patriotism" of Ashcroft" (thanks, Obey_Matthew_6_6 ;)), but proud of the vision that brought this country into being, and that the potential seen by Jefferson, who was quite the visionary, has been at least partially fulfilled.

One fundamental of my patriotism is that my voice as a part of a minority is very important. I feel that speaking up and challenging the majority when they claim to speak for everyone is crucial.

[Lady Arwyn]

Being a patriot doesn't mean "my country, right or wrong". Being a patriot means to love your country, and value it enough to work to keep it working,, try to fix it if it goes wrong, and keep it a good place to live. Sometimes people I don't like create policies that are clearly *wrong*, but it is the spirit of our country, the spirit of justice, of freedom, and the willingness to step into the future, that I value.

I am an American, a patriot, a US Navy veteran. I would die to defend, not my president, he is only a man, but my country. My Country isn't the current administration, it is the Constitution, the Bill of RIghts and the People of the United States of America.

Blindly supporting a president, or any other politician, or a religious belief isn't patriotism.

[WhyBeNormal]

Being a patriot doesn't mean "my country, right or wrong". Being a patriot means to love your country, and value it enough to work to keep it working,, try to fix it if it goes wrong, and keep it a good place to live. Sometimes people I don't like create policies that are clearly *wrong*, but it is the spirit of our country, the spirit of justice, of freedom, and the willingness to step into the future, that I value.

I am an American, a patriot, a US Navy veteran. I would die to defend, not my president, he is only a man, but my country. My Country isn't the current administration, it is the Constitution, the Bill of RIghts and the People of the United States of America.

Blindly supporting a president, or any other politician, or a religious belief isn't patriotism.
I couldn't agree more. I'm a very patriotic American atheist. Despite America's falts, (the large amount of fundies would be one) this is still the greatest nation on earth! :)

[inmeitrust]

The U.S. arose from the founding fathers who were tired of illegitimate rulers that claimed power from some unseen force. We were able to sucessfully negotiate with muslims in the early 19th century specifically because our nation wasn't hampered by any religious attachments. America goes wrong when we stray from the ideals of the founders, as laid down in the constitution.

I'm not proud of the errors, or even atrocities, my country has done. I am proud when we recognize them and attempt correction. My country, as all healthy societies, is an evolving, fluid entity. It sometimes is glowing, sometimes horribly embarassing. Mostly I am the proudest of my country at it's willingness to explore new ideas and accept people of different cultures. America does have racial problems. Primarily because of the close contact of so many races. No other place on this planet can one find such a mixture of beliefs, skin colors, languages, etc. As people generally have trouble dealing with change and the unknow, of course problems arise. Sometimes in an ugly way. It is the way America has learned, and is learning, to adapt.

I am a patriot of my country. I will die to maintain it's system of democracy. More importantly, I am willing to kill to prevent others from ruining it. I took an oath once to defend the constitution against all enemies, BOTH FORIEGN AND DOMESTIC. That is not simplistic jingoism. That is patriotism of beliefs, not just borders.

I see many countries putting up fences to keep people in. We put up fences to control the flow of people who want to come here. If you don't like our country you can leave. Or, more impressively, you can take individual steps to make it better. I have little patience or respect for people who blindly bitch and take no action to improve our nation.

[Dyrwen]

Patriotism and atheism. I see no relation outside of the religious context most people attempt to justify as American, but to me it isn't a big deal anyway.

Since I am not a patriot. I do not believe any country is inherently better than any other country. All governments are equally wrong in their rulings. Holding one flag higher than any other is bullshit and I won't ever support the idea that my country is better than anyone else's when it isn't. I may move in time, just to escape the stigma of needing to be patriotic to be American, but I also don't want to leave because that is all people who spout "Don't like it? Leave it" want.

I disagree with this country (The USA) as much as I disagree with any other. I am not a patriot. I don't believe in the ideals this country was built on because it was built over the ashes of dead Natives, rather than unity. I don't believe in the ideals of this country because it was home grown on bigotry, racism, and imperialism and in one sense or another, still is. I don't believe in the theory of equality and liberty being under the same roof, because if you're truly free with every one else, equality comes in the deal, and you don't bow to a nation of anykind wishing to control you, even if they do believe they are there to protect you.

So there's my opinion, pushing dissent as usual. My atheism is just a lack of belief in gods and I am quite tolerant of religions in general, but when it comes to politics, that's where I become less tolerable in any sense of the term.