US/UK differences

[Pendaric]

It becomes very apparent reading this board from a UK perspective that there is a radically different culture with regards to religion between the US and the UK.

The default position here in the UK, at least amongst the indigenous population, is atheist or agnostic. No one raises an eyebrow at the thought that you are not a Christian, and there is no kind of social exclusion. The Christian is well in the minority, and does not expect everyone they meet to share their faith.

Shops are mainly open on a Sunday, certainly the larger stores. Those that are closed do so because they want a day off, not for religious reasons. Christmas and Easter are mainly celebrated as secular holidays, with Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny having more prominence than Jesus.

It has certainly opened my eyes over the last month of reading this board to see that an atheist is almost a member of a persecuted minority in America.

Is it really as bad as the sense I get from here, or is it a slanted perspective through being on an atheist board? (I'm sure there must be some of that).

What percentage of the population are actively religious in America?

I would say 10% tops in the UK. I'm sure I heard somewhere that there are now more practising Muslims than Christians here, so call it 5% Christian and 5% Muslim, with other religions not forming a significant percentage.

Of course I'm talking about practising religion. The percentage of nominally religious people would be higher, but most of them haven't stepped foot in a church outside baptisms, weddings and funerals in their life.

[The Evil One]

My perception is that active, committed Christians are in a minority, as are atheists and agnostics, but apathetic, hatchins-matchins-and-dispatchins Christians are in the majority here, simply because of belief inertia.

[clark]

IMO, religion is overshadowed by American consumerisn/capitalism/commercialism. Few "blue laws" exist and most stores are open on Sunday. There are some exceptions, for example, chains owned by Christian fundamentalists like Hobby Lobby and Chic-Fil-A. Most small businesses that are closed on Sundays are not explicitly for religious reasons. It can be hard, though, to buy booze on Sundays in parts of the rural South.

About 40-45% of Americans attend church regularly. That number is much higher on Easter and Xmas. Most Americans are nominally religious. The 2001 ARIS (American Religious Identification Survey) survey found that 14% of Americans are nonreligious. The good news from that is that it was up from 8% in 1990. The percentage of Americans calling themselves atheists is very small (1% in the ARIS survey), though "Do you believe in God?" polls typically have 6% to 10% answering in the negative.

In many places in the US religion is extremely blended into the culture - in the South with Southern Baptists, in Utah with Mormonism and in parts of Louisiana with Catholicism. There are certainly parts of the US where being an atheist is not accepted at all. West coast cities (LA, SF, Seattle, Portland), New York City and many college towns are more accepting to atheists. Las Vegas, where I live, has a 22% nonreligious rate and most praying is done at the sports books and slot machines :).

THOUGHTfully Yours,
Clark

[catalyst]

Of course I'm talking about practising religion. The percentage of nominally religious people would be higher, but most of them haven't stepped foot in a church outside baptisms, weddings and funerals in their life.

I actually think that many people who call themselves Christains/religous here in America fall into this category, especially if you throw in going to church on Christmas and Easter.

Our fundamentalists seem to be both very vocal and disturbingly well organized.

[meritocrat]

Heh, well I'm glad that Britain is largely secular.

All these fools who want to 'keep sunday special' are BEHIND THE TIMES! They simply cannot accept that most British people do not lead an active Christian life! Times change; if you don't keep up you get left behind. ;)

[The AntiChris]

The default position here in the UK, at least amongst the indigenous population, is atheist or agnostic.I disagree.

The majority of people I see in the UK are apathetic believers of some kind or another. The default position of all the mainstream media is an assumption of some kind of religious belief. It's all very laid back and not at all 'in-yer-face', but it exists all the same.

Chris

[Don Alhambra]

I disagree.

The majority of people I see in the UK are apathetic believers of some kind or another. The default position of all the mainstream media is an assumption of some kind of religious belief. It's all very laid back and not at all 'in-yer-face', but it exists all the same.

Chris

That's accurate I think. The assumption of some kind of belief is there, but it isn't really an issue in most cases. What is certain is that the vast majority of people don't seem to give a shit about what religion you are. The 'in-yer-face' stuff is left to the evangelical organisations, who are generally ignored.

Our Prime Minister is a born-again Christian for example, but aside from supporting faith-based initiatives he keeps his religious beliefs out of public life.

[mecca777]

Our Prime Minister is a born-again Christian for example, but aside from supporting faith-based initiatives he keeps his religious beliefs out of public life.On the other hand, that's more than enough to be angry about, especially since most charities and non-profit organisations in the UK these days have to beg for the overspill from the Lotto pot. And then the Government decides to use the Lotto "good causes" fund for a London Olympic bid...

[Undercurrent]

About 40-45% of Americans attend church regularly.

I had heard that that figure was more like "40-45% of Americans say they attend church regularly" and that numbers derived from head counts at chuches are more line 20%. If that's true, it certainly says something about the prevelence of "religious guilt" in the US.

[Boomeister]

I had heard that that figure was more like "40-45% of Americans say they attend church regularly" and that numbers derived from head counts at chuches are more line 20%. If that's true, it certainly says something about the prevelence of "religious guilt" in the US.

20 percent sounds about right, maybe even less. Most people who consider themselves to be Christians are actually theists who may think Jesus is a cool dude or may follow the Golden Rule. They give nothing more than a superficial reading and understanding of the bible and Christianity. Fundamental Christians are a minority but a very vocal minority. Unfortunately, many of them are in my family. Ack! But then again, I'm in the south.


Boomeister

[missus_gumby]

Don, I disagree that Tony Blair is a born-again christian - he describes himself as "half Catholic". I can dig out the speech where he said it if you want.

Anyhoo, this is the land where atheists can win lawsuits. (http://www.observer.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,6903,1185391,00.html) And what's more the article suggests further positive implications for atheists in UK law under the Human Rights Act.

Read it and weep my American friends.

Missus Gumby

[Don Alhambra]

Don, I disagree that Tony Blair is a born-again christian - he describes himself as "half Catholic". I can dig out the speech where he said it if you want.

Anyhoo, this is the land where atheists can win lawsuits. (http://www.observer.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,6903,1185391,00.html) And what's more the article suggests further positive implications for atheists in UK law under the Human Rights Act.

Good point there, I forgot about Cherie. :D My guess is that his actual viewpoint, after running the country for seven years, is 'there might be a God but bloody hell it's hard enough running one country let alone the whole of humanity...'

And I saw that article today! I was going to post it here, but I guessed someone might have done it already. I was right. :)

[Ftoomsch]

IMO, religion is overshadowed by American consumerisn/capitalism/commercialism. Few "blue laws" exist and most stores are open on Sunday. There are some exceptions, for example, chains owned by Christian fundamentalists like Hobby Lobby and Chic-Fil-A. Most small businesses that are closed on Sundays are not explicitly for religious reasons. It can be hard, though, to buy booze on Sundays in parts of the rural South.

I live in upstate New York, less than 2 hours from NYC; while most stores at the Mall are open Sunday, many small businesses, particularly non-chain stores, are closed. This is often true of entire communities, particularly those that constitute "real" towns as opposed to collections of strip malls along an interstate with bedroom communities of housing developments behind them. Those businesses that are open, are open for a shorter period of time than the rest of the week in most cases. As far as buying booze, I know of no liquor stores open Sunday in my area. I believe it is a county law as to what hours liquor stores can operate, so none can be open Sunday in my county or the adjacent ones.

There are certainly parts of the US where being an atheist is not accepted at all. West coast cities (LA, SF, Seattle, Portland), New York City and many college towns are more accepting to atheists. Las Vegas, where I live, has a 22% nonreligious rate and most praying is done at the sports books and slot machines :).


I tended to avoid mentioning my atheism at work when I worked in my local area, not because of overt prejudice or discrimination but because of the awkwardness it causes with many people and the potential for confrontation with or alienation of coworkers. Most people reacted calmly and I could joke about it if it did come up; but every once in a while there would be one who would be shocked and have to tell me they'd pray for me, or run around and discuss it with others. I would say that overt atheism is still something of a shock to most people around here, even if they react politely. It varies a lot from town to town, oddly enough. Now I commute to NYC, which is very accepting because it's so cosmopolitan.

All in all though, I think it is a good thing to have a common day of rest, regardless of why.

[Al Kafirun]

I love my country. I haven't looked into the politics section because I know I'll get pissed off. But if I could afford it I'd move to the UK or virtually anywhere else simply because of the religious insanity. Everything is being re-written, re-visioned with a Christian slant and there is absolutely no tolerance when it comes to non-Christianity.

[Josie]

I know that there are places that are more open than where I live, but I would not tell anyone around here unless I knew that they would not take it wrong, or spread it. There are more churches that bars around here, and the Amish are so prevalent that we have hitching rails in town for their buggies. The Mennonites basically own the whole of the next town, and the center of downtown Mio is empty on Sunday, unless you want to buy gas.

[Barcode]

I wouldn't go as far to say the majority in the U.K are atheist/agnostic - as someone else pointed out, there is the assumption that most of us believe in *something* - it's just not considered polite to talk about it and become all preachy. Those who do, are usually looked at like they have escaped from the local mental institution.

Whereas in the U.S, I gather it's common to be witnessed at on the street in parts. During my trip to St Louis a few years ago, I was surprised there was a church every hundred yards (and this was in the middle of nowhere - more churches than houses) and billboards with slogans like (and I wish I was making this up) "If you have an uncontrollable drinking habit/sex life, then come and talk to Jesus!"

It was like stepping into some weird parallel universe - everyone was in on this, but me.

The U.K is a good place to be an atheist. Even the most fundie types you'll encounter here tend to leave you alone when you ask politely.

[clark]

...I tended to avoid mentioning my atheism at work when I worked in my local area, not because of overt prejudice or discrimination but because of the awkwardness it causes with many people and the potential for confrontation with or alienation of coworkers. Most people reacted calmly and I could joke about it if it did come up; but every once in a while there would be one who would be shocked and have to tell me they'd pray for me, or run around and discuss it with others. I would say that overt atheism is still something of a shock to most people around here, even if they react politely. It varies a lot from town to town, oddly enough. Now I commute to NYC, which is very accepting because it's so cosmopolitan.

I have found, especially with co-workers that if asked, I'm pretty honest. Usually, the know me well enough and any pre-conceived prejudices they may have about atheists would be contradicted. I rarely bring it up, but if asked I say I don't believe or am an atheist. Of the dozen or so people at my office, at least three are atheists, including myself. It's not really an issue and some of our other coworkers have joked about it from time to time. I used this "tactic" when I worked in Mississippi and Georgia and it worked there too. In Georgia, a few of my coworkers were shocked (this was rural Georgia), but I never had a problem there as they liked me before they knew I was a "durn heathern" :).

THOUGHTfully Yours,
Clark

[iridium]

Some such as AntiChris have argued with the point made that atheism/agnostism being the majority here in te UK. I'd agree and say that at least half of those saying they are christian on the census are agnostic or athist, purely because thay've never really thought about it and tickd the box out of habit. Religious surveys are never accurate.

[Proxima Centauri]

I wouldn't go as far to say the majority in the U.K are atheist/agnostic - as someone else pointed out, there is the assumption that most of us believe in *something* - it's just not considered polite to talk about it and become all preachy. Those who do, are usually looked at like they have escaped from the local mental institution.

(...)and billboards with slogans like (and I wish I was making this up) "If you have an uncontrollable drinking habit/sex life, then come and talk to Jesus!"
The U.K is a good place to be an atheist. Even the most fundie types you'll encounter here tend to leave you alone when you ask politely.

Well I live in Birmingham. I don't think there's an assumption in the white community here that you believe something. The ethinc minorities are generally more religious.

"If you have an uncontrollable sex life, talk to Jesus." Is Jebus so keen on sexy people?
What type of sex does he like? All types?

[maddog]

Well, nobody said they had to be consistent -- much of where I live is very secular in practice. For example, Wal-Mart never closes. But Wal-Mart has fundamentalist-influenced policies about, e.g., what books or movies they will carry. People who act almost all the time like a secular person, in terms of what they do all day and how they behave morally, can "identify" as some vague kind of Christian, they might not even attend church much, but just let someone say they are an atheist (or gay -- or, even worse, a gay atheist) and all of the usual Biblical harangues will come out. As long as they don't have to know you exist, things are cool, but if their assumption that everyone believes in their version of God is challenged, just watch out.

[Barcode]

Well I live in Birmingham. I don't think there's an assumption in the white community here that you believe something. The ethinc minorities are generally more religious.

Perhaps it depends on where you are from: I grew up on the Isle of Wight, where I suspect many attended church for the sake of something to do.

I never met anybody who openly professed atheism until I moved to London - even my non-believing Dad was quiet about it, and paid lip-service to religious ceremonies and events such as Christmas/Easter. It's just a cultural thing I guess.

[iridium]

Hmm, yeah, going to have to take my grand-parents-in-law-to-be to church this coming Sunday :( trying to igure out how best to do the "see you in an hour then, I'm off for a walk/feeding the ducks etc" line without pissing them off, not sure how religious they are, have a feeling they're the kind of "out of habit" church goers though and not really strict. I really really do not want to go in with them, girlfriend will but I really can't face it.

[chapka]

I had heard that that figure was more like "40-45% of Americans say they attend church regularly" and that numbers derived from head counts at chuches are more line 20%. If that's true, it certainly says something about the prevelence of "religious guilt" in the US.

Here are the actual numbers (http://www.pollingreport.com/religion.htm)

Highlights:

60% think Noah's Flood is literally true.
42% or 30% think the Bible is the actual word of God (all to be taken literally)
78% believe in angels and 24% in witches
70% would approve of a 10Cs display in a public building, but only 33% of a Koran display
61% say religion is very important in their life
66% belong to a church
43% have attended within the last 7 days
31% attend at least once a week, and 36% attend seldom or never
46% call themselves "born again" or evangelical
17% think the Second Coming will happen in their lifetime
23% think 9/11 was predicted by Revelations
10% thinks Jews have "too much influence" on America (but only 6% say they're prejudiced against Jews)
4% say they don't believe in God, and 2% don't know
40% expect Armageddon to happen, and 47% of those think the Antichrist is alive now

Of course, these are all survey results, so they're subject to normal human exaggeration and guilt. But still pretty scary.

The PollingReport site itself is highly recommended, if only because it gives you the exact survey questions as well as the answers.

Edited to add:

The same site's "values" section (http://www.pollingreport.com/values.htm) (separate from the religion section) contains these edifying numbers:

41% believe that "sex between an unmarried man and woman" is "morally wrong"
52% believe that "homosexual behavior" is "morally wrong"
Generally speaking, 60%-70% of people seem to feel that the country is going to hell in a handbasket and things were better when they were kids.


And from the URL=http://www.pollingreport.com/science.htm]science section:[/URL]

47% of people chose the YEC position over theistic evolution (40%) or atheistic evolution (9%)
When asked which was more likely to be the actual explanation for life on Earth, 15% chose evolution and 50% chose the Bible. (25% chose "both").

Finally, in one of the most marked differences between the US and UK, the sports section (http://www.pollingreport.com/sports.htm#Soccer) reveals that 53% of Americans are "not at all interested" in soccer and only 9% are "very interested". And when asked whether men's or women's soccer was more interesting, 27% voluntarily (meaning it wasn't one of the choices) answered "no soccer is interesting". (P.S.: Go Quakes!)

[Barcode]

Sometimes, remaining ignorant about the world's ignorance is a positive thing if it allows me to preserve my opinion of the intelligence of my fellow human beings.

Those statistics are disturbing. Another one I came across today reported that 18% of Americans believe the Sun revolves around the Earth: I don't understand how otherwise intelligent people come to believe these things, or perhaps they were lacking a few brain cells from the beginning.

[AspenMama]

Moved from SL.

[Silent Acorns]

Christmas and Easter are mainly celebrated as secular holidays, with Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny having more prominence than Jesus.
It's similar here in Canada, but we're starting to see a backlash. Letters to the Editor, and OP/ED pieces increasingly make "Jesus is the Reason for the Season" type arguments. Invariably they'll say that things like Christmas Trees and Easter Eggs distract from the "True meaning" of Christmas and Easter, oblivious to the fact that in reality Jesus is a Christian distraction from the original symbols of these pagan celebrations: trees and eggs.

Have you seen a rise in "True meaning of Easter/Christmas" arguments in the UK?

[BioBeing]

I moved from the UK to the US 11 years ago.

I have had people here, on meeting me for the first time ask what church I attend as soon as they learn my name. It has happened several times. The assumption is defintitely that one is Christian, and that one goes to Church regularly. Very different to the UK. Sunday morning is a great time to go buy groceries, as everyone else is in Church. These are so many Churches in Memphis, and some of them are HUGE. All have huge parking lots that overflow, and their own traffic directors stopping regular traffic so the faithful can get in and out as quickly as possible and back home to the game on TV or off to the Mall...

[missus_gumby]

On the 31st July, 2002, the online Telegraph (the Internet version of the UK pro-christian newspaper) published some figures about belief amongst the clergy in Britain. Here are some of them:

One third of the clergy do not believe in the resurrection.
50% of the clergy do not think the virgin birth happened.
25% do not accept the doctrine of the trinity.
20% do not believe god created the world.

...the data was provided in a survey of 2000 clergy. I suspect that two years later the figures are now a little worse (for the organised church that is).

I suspect - but have no evidence whatsoever - that many, a percentage reflecting the figures above, of the clergy in the UK have no god-belief at all.

Missus Gumby

[Secular Jeff]

In Colorado it is illegal to sell bottled alcoholic beverages on Sundays. You can buy 3.2% beer at grocery stores on Sunday and you can order an alcoholic drink at a bar or restaraunt on Sundays.

Also, all of the new and used car dealerships are not allowed to sell any type of vehicles on Sundays.

To the best of my knowledge these are the only things that are still illegal on Sundays in Colorado.


Jeff

[missus_gumby]

Also, all of the new and used car dealerships are not allowed to sell any type of vehicles on Sundays.

Jeff

I take it they have not discovered a way round the Sunday car sales laws yet? Jeff, do your community a favour and tell all the car sales places to start selling carrots on a Sunday.

Carrots?

Yes, carrots. All they have to do is sell the carrots at incredibly inflated prices, then throw in new cars as free gifts with the carrots. This tactic worked in the UK a couple of decades ago at furniture stores. All the big furnitures stores over here are now trading on Sundays. As is every other type of commercial outlet.

Missus Gumby

[Secular Jeff]

Carrots. Good idea.

However, even if it were legal I don't know how many dealerships would open on a Sunday. I have talked to several used car dealers over the years and they love having a day off.

Jeff

[Dragar]

I suspect - but have no evidence whatsoever - that many, a percentage reflecting the figures above, of the clergy in the UK have no god-belief at all.

It's programs like Vicar of Dibley and Father Ted that give rise to these suspicions, I think.

Wonderful comedies. :)

Dragar

[meritocrat]

I disagree.

The majority of people I see in the UK are apathetic believers of some kind or another. The default position of all the mainstream media is an assumption of some kind of religious belief. It's all very laid back and not at all 'in-yer-face', but it exists all the same.

Chris

I agree with others here saying that the ethnic minorities are arguably the most religious people in Britain.

My town has a large ethnic minority population (Indian, Pakistani, black, etc.) and I'd say they were probably the most religious. Most of the white population (in my experience anyhow) claim to be atheist or agnostic.

[Oregon Slim]

Numbers like those given above above will vary an awful lot depending on how the survey is conducted, etc, etc. And people do tend to lie, it seems. The claim that more than 40% go to church each week is contradicted by surveys of the actual number of vehicles parked near churches during services, which tend to put actual attendance just a little over 20%.

One survey said that about 90% of Americans expect to go to heaven. Another said that only 60% believe that there is a heaven, and a third survey said that 86% believed that Mother Theresa was in heaven. So, you've got at least 4% who think that they are holier than Mother Theresa and 30% who plan on going somewhere that doesn't exist.

Go figure.

[Brion]

If equality of religious belief was observed then we
carrot worshipers should be able to ban the sale of
Carrots on Sundays !

[chapka]

Numbers like those given above above will vary an awful lot depending on how the survey is conducted, etc, etc.

Check the link I posted with the numbers. It gives the firm conducting the survey, the margin of error, and the exact questions used. Usually there are also several identical surveys from different years which are generally broadly consistent. And, because they include surveys from different outfits, there are usually a few similar questions phrased differently so you can see how the phrasing affects things.

[msboyd]

Having lived in both countries, I would say that the situation in the US has gotten much worse (from a A/A perspective) over the last 10 years or so as the Christian Right has taken control of many broadcasting organs and lobbying groups.

When I left the US in the 90s, you were still able to say 'goddamn' on television (at least the programs I watched) but when I returned later, that was considered 'blasphemy' and had to be bleeped out -- that was long before the Saga of Janet's Breast.

I probably met one person in the UK who had a religious bent, and everyone else thought he had a problem -- it's absolutely the reverse here in the US. In much of the midwest, it's assumed that you are a several-times-a-week churchgoing Christian, and that if you are not, there's something seriously wrong with you. I can't imagine living outside a major metropolitan area for that reason.

[Plognark]

It has certainly opened my eyes over the last month of reading this board to see that an atheist is almost a member of a persecuted minority in America.

Remove the word "almost" and you're about right. I'm open about my Atheism, although I don't usually bring it up in conversation unless asked, and it has caused me some modest social issues. :rolleyes:

Fewer Americans are religious, but in response, the religious right has become a lean, mean, and organized propoganda machine.


What disturbs me is how fucking stupid many of my fellow Americans are. Astrology, tarot cards, psychics, and an abysmal understanding of both basic science, mathematics, and our own god damn language.

I'm not even that smart and I have to dumb down my speech for most people I know and work with to understand me; and I work in a more intellectual IT type job. I have a reputation for "knowing everything" at work, just because I actually paid attention in highschool and still read a bit. :mad:

It's infuriating.

[DMB]

Baldbantam: I think you take a rather optimistic view of the UK. The CofE is still the Established Church and has an influence that is disproportionate to the number of its believing adherents. Its bishops still sit in the House of Lords. Then we get the issues of broadcasting, with the requirement for TV companies to include religious programmes. Despite a lot of protest, the BBC Department of Religion and Ethics (a significant name!) refuses to allow Humanists and other non-believers to appear on the Radio 4 prime-time "Thought for the Day", which is put out daily as part of the popular "Today" programme.

The Blair Government has not only expanded the number of faith-based schools but has decreased the amount the religions have to pay for them and greatly increased the subsidy from the taxpayer, while allowing these schools to discriminate against non-members of their particular religions. At a time when there is finally recognition of the follies of multi-culturalism and with the horrible example of Northern Ireland before us, the Government is blindly encouraging segregation and cultural ghettos.

As a result of energetic lobbying, religious groups have been given exemption from employment legislation that in general prohibits discrimination against employees on the grounds of their religious or sexual orientation.

Then we have the Heir to the Throne constantly making half-baked statements in favour of faith -- any faith.

Please see this thread (http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=82165) that I have just started for another threat to democracy from faith groups. There is a similar threat in the proposed Article 51 of the European Constitution that some of us are fighting against.

The National Secular Society (http://www.secularism.org.uk/) is the only group I am aware of that is actively fighting this sort of nonsense. They do it on a shoestring and need all the help they can get.

I agree that we are much better placed than most parts of the United States, but there is still plenty of scope for secular activism in the UK.

[Bersec]

...I experience exactly the same situation as you do when it comes to communicating with some of my co-workers (I'm also in IT); and English is not even my first language.

[Shake]

I live in upstate New York, less than 2 hours from NYC; while most stores at the Mall are open Sunday, many small businesses, particularly non-chain stores, are closed. This is often true of entire communities, particularly those that constitute "real" towns as opposed to collections of strip malls along an interstate with bedroom communities of housing developments behind them. Those businesses that are open, are open for a shorter period of time than the rest of the week in most cases. As far as buying booze, I know of no liquor stores open Sunday in my area. I believe it is a county law as to what hours liquor stores can operate, so none can be open Sunday in my county or the adjacent ones.That's true in my part of NY as well. Many businesses that are open Sundays have their hours quite restricted. Try to find much of anything, apart from service stations and large grocers, open (much) before noon!

The town where my wife grew up only just stopped being a dry town within the last 5 years or so. My county recently passed a law allowing liquor stores to be open on Sundays provided that they are then closed one other day of the week.

Clark makes some good points. The almighty dollar has pushed more businesses to be open on Sundays, even if for limited times, with limited exceptions. People don't seem to be as upset about restaurants being open though, as they enjoy their Sunday brunches.

[SEF]

I've had some problems with my atheism (or anti-theism) in the UK. Part of it was because I was (forced into) attending church services, sunday schools and youth group - where I suppose a higher percentage of people might expect one to be a christian. :rolleyes:

One really appalling thing I found out was the assumptions made by many government forms. In hospital there simply weren't options on the NHS form for anything other than a couple of christian flavours and possibly something ethnic which I don't recall. My mother and the staff wanted me to be labelled as C-of-E (the default) but I thought the whole idea was an abomination and kicked up a big fuss about being labelled as something which I wasn't (I can't stand even the half-lies which inadequate forms force upon me). The insult would have been especially bad as they might then have sent the chaplain round if I didn't escape the building fast enough and if they managed to kill me there would be even more religious trappings involved. I think I managed to get a special note put on the form in the end. I prefer it when I get to add my own box. I dislike many internet forms because they make stuff which is none of their business into obligatory fields and one can't add one's own box when the right options aren't there.

These days things are probably a bit better. As well as people like me who won't put up with being lied about, the larger immigrant population of various faiths must have forced a proliferation of boxes, an open text area or the abandonment of the whole question altogether. Though the latter is unlikely given these obsessive compulsive pigeon-holers!

The UK 2001 census was quite funny for a number of reasons. There was definitely an attempt to allow more options for various categories though I think I still had to add at least one box of my own. The best bit was the campaigning for Jedi Knight as a religious category. The final result seems to have been much greater than originally hoped - 3/4 of a percent of the responding population. I went through the entirety of the films again, picking out quotes which I saved in a text file, to see if I could possibly reconcile myself with putting Jedi on the form (eg by defining the Force to be gravity or TOE etc) but I couldn't quite manage even that tiny equivocation in order to annoy the government/bureaucrats a bit. So I had to go with my real status again. For the rest of the population, unsurprisingly it looks like (token) christian came out top but none (=atheist) didn't exactly do badly - especially in Scotland.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/2757067.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/spl/hi/uk/03/census_2001/html/religion.stm

[Kimpatsu]

What percentage of the population are actively religious in America?
I would say 10% tops in the UK. I'm sure I heard somewhere that there are now more practising Muslims than Christians here, so call it 5% Christian and 5% Muslim, with other religions not forming a significant percentage.
Actually, it's more like 2%. Unfortunately, in the 10-yearly census, the majority tick the "Xian" box, and the religious use this as an excuse to push their overtly religious agenda. What people who tick the "Xian" box really mean, of course, is that they've inherited the meme from their parents. They view church as a place to hold milestone events, such as weddings and funerals; they never really think about religious issues per se.

[SEF]

Unfortunately, in the 10-yearly census, the majority tick the "Xian" box, and the religious use this as an excuse to push their overtly religious agenda. What people who tick the "Xian" box really mean, of course, is that they've inherited the meme from their parents.Worse than that, most children don't get to fill themselves in on forms at all - their parents proclaim them as xian without their permission (or knowledge). The religious lot would probably like to claim me as a xian just because I was baptised/christened. What it really means of course is that I didn't get to choose my family (or country) and I presumably didn't manage to bite the vicar hard enough or do anything else seriously offensive to get barred at a young age. Clearly, original sin isn't what it used to be. Shouldn't I have had to confess and be forgiven or whatever (and therefore be of an age to be capable of that) before I was even allowed in the place? ;) Certainly if I'd managed to succeed in dying young enough then a lot of sects would have used it as an excuse to not count me as xian enough for "proper" service and burial.