Atheist Groups

[DougP]

I was talking to someone about atheists groups and he got all defensive and said the following, its utter nonsense, but what do you think it a good way to respond that will not seem like an assault and that might make him see my(our) point of view
His response:

"freethinkers" club? That's a spin if I ever heard it. If you were proud of your lack of faith than you wouldn't hide it under false pretenses. ;-)

No offense Doug, but why do atheists need a place to go to also? Christians get together to learn how to be a better Christian. Are atheists going to learn how to be better atheists? What's the point in that? I don't mean to sound like a jerk say this but what would be accomplished?

Again no offense to anyone. But people in religious clubs get together to bring out the positives of their faiths. Atheists are by their very nature against religion. There is nothing to promote or be positive about. The only topic of discussion has to be why you are against other religions or G-d or gods.

The common bonding of the people is that they have no bonding in faiths. Seems like you are trying to defend your stance against something instead a stance for something. Am I completely wrong?

[King Rat]

I can understand that people of like mind would like to gather. But to gather in order to further the lack of belief is utterly strange to me. Should we then become missionaries?

[AspenMama]

No offense Doug, but why do atheists need a place to go to also? Christians get together to learn how to be a better Christian. Are atheists going to learn how to be better atheists? What's the point in that? I don't mean to sound like a jerk say this but what would be accomplished?
What about learning to be a better human without reliance on the supernatural? There's always a point in learning to be a better person. Does he think atheists are already perfect?

Again no offense to anyone. But people in religious clubs get together to bring out the positives of their faiths.
Why do we all get together here? Largely to find a sense of community so often lacking in real life.
Atheists are by their very nature against religion.
Not necessarily. Most atheists are against religion infringing on their personal and public lives. Some are indeed against religion as a whole but it is "not by their very nature".
There is nothing to promote or be positive about. He knows very little about atheism. There is a great deal to be positive about being free of mythology and making choices based on knowledge and humanity towards others.
The only topic of discussion has to be why you are against other religions or G-d or gods. One among many topics. We often discuss simple day to day living without mythology to guide us.
The common bonding of the people is that they have no bonding in faiths. Seems like you are trying to defend your stance against something instead a stance for something. Am I completely wrong?
He's got it wrong, in my view. I see atheists for thinking rationaly. I would turn this around completely and say that it seems he is going to church simply to defend his assertion that some sort of god exists.

[Stacey Melissa]

Atheists can form groups to talk about just about anything. We talk about anything and everything without viewing it all within a theistic framework. We discuss ethics issues, scientific issues, metaphysical issues, day-to-day life issues, etc., all without reference to deities. We discuss the nature of human thought, human progress, politics, culture, and so on. Debate about the existence of gods is only a part of what we discuss. As much as anything, we are here to support each other in the face of great opposition from the theists outside our group.

[BrianTerrel]

It might be a good thing to point out that not all atheists share the same views. Since he obviously knows almost nothing about atheists, it probably hasn't occured to him that we don't agree all the time.

For me, its fun to gather with other atheists just to hash it out over the details of living without mythology. I'm always in the mood for a good argument.

[Shake]

Ah, the all-too-common misconception that the 'a' in 'atheist' means 'anti', when in fact, it's more akin to the word 'asexual' (meaning: without sex).

Atheism: without a belief in the supernatural.

This is not to say, of course, that some atheists aren't anti-religion. There are some of those, but the definition is more one of neutrality rather than antagonism.

[capsaicin67]

As others mention, I too am Pro-Reason, and thus anti-superstition. I do feel ethically motivated to promote Reason in the same way that I'd like to promote Human Rights generally. I'm not ready to "impose it" yet, but I'm ok with helping to advance it. It will always be tricky blancing that with tolerance for those that are superstitious but I'm not sure that it is possible to not take a side on the issue, for me anyway.

Why nontheistic groups are appealing and potentially useful:

-Fellowship and validation and support for and with those of like mind.

-Networking, especially with those that are not prejudiced against me.

-Discussion of values with those that do not derive their values from supersition.

-Sharing of resources, info, tips and leads.

-Expanding my knowledge base specific to my metaphysical bent.

-Increasing my and others' intellectual and emotional immunity/resistance to popular superstition and cults.

-Strengthening C/SS as I believe it reduces bloodshed and conflict and increases acceptance and tolerance and peaceful co-existence. It also provides the "space" for individuals to have liberty of conscience and to follow many possible avenues of metaphysics.

-Pro-Reason is a value that is Pro Science. Science shows us fascinating things about the universe in which we dwell, and improves quality of life in various instances. Science encourages a thinking mind, superstition stunts it.

-I like fun and field trips with members of my own species and probably always will.

-People that share similar values are more likely to have sustainable marriages from what I have heard and experienced. It is difficult to find and meet other nontheists as it is. I'd be open to and possibly enjoy being partnered and having kids with the right person someday. Nontheistic groups might better facilitate some of us to meet others of likemind for friendship----or mating!

That's all I can think of at the moment.

[partial plate]

One reason that religion is so successful despite its falsity is that it provides a sense of community among church-goers. That interpersonal connection and community fellowship just doesn't have a parrallel in the secular world. I think that is reason enough to have atheists groups. Maybe the activist wing could pursue an agenda, too -- but I think that a common bond of brother/sister-hood is what we are really missing.

Just my $.02

[Shake]

One reason that religion is so successful despite its falsity is that it provides a sense of community among church-goers. That interpersonal connection and community fellowship just doesn't have a parrallel in the secular world. I think that is reason enough to have atheists groups. Maybe the activist wing could pursue an agenda, too -- but I think that a common bond of brother/sister-hood is what we are really missing.

Just my $.02This is probably why some agnostics and atheists attend UU churches.

Now, I've only been to one, but the Atheist Meetups (http://atheists.meetup.com) are at least a way to get to know fellow local atheists. At that one meeting I went to, I wasn't the only one who expressed joy over knowing that I wasn't alone in the area. At worst, it's a chance to network, and perhaps you can find another group in your area that's more established or is more activist or whatever.

[Roland98]

This may be more appropriate for PA&SA.

Roland98
SL moderator

[Godless Wonder]

I can understand that people of like mind would like to gather. But to gather in order to further the lack of belief is utterly strange to me. Should we then become missionaries? If a way could be found to effectively destroy the reputation of blind faith, I'm all for it. I find religion to be actively harmful, and I really do want it extinct. Voluntarily, of course, I don't think attempting force people to think one way or another is a good idea, that would be a horrible idea. But at the same time, I think blind faith, which many many people astonishingly view as a good thiing, should be shown to be the horrible thing that it is, and this idea, that blind faith is really bad thinking and something to be avoided and discouraged should be drummed into people's heads. I don't have any good ideas about how to do this, though.

Currently the word "faith" is used in a number of ways. I would like to comandeer the word, much as the word "gay" was comandeered, so that "faith" may be shown for what it is. The other, usages of "faith" should simply be dropped, they are expendable casualties.

[King Rat]

But to actively proselytize our lack of belief is just weird.

I'll freely admit that since I was raised LDS I'm probably more than a little sensitive when it comes to "spreading the word." It really, Really, REALLY, rubs me the wrong way.

I also spent a lot of time as a practicing buddhist, so I'm still very focused on getting myself together. I'd never presume to give what I do not have.

[Richard1366]

capsaicin67:

I think you summed it up very well, bravo!!

We read many threads on this web about dealing with fundy boyfriends or fundy girlfriends and how difficult this is. Meeting together might allow finding companions that are at least in general agreement in the religious aspect of a relationship.

How many threads do we read about atheists that still attend church because of the "community" factor? I don't want to spread the word, I would just hope that I might be able to alter a few beliefs, about either religion in general or if that is not possible, for our community to let others know that to be an atheist is not being a devil/satan/witchcraft worshipper.

It's much more enjoyable to learn and think together.

I

[capsaicin67]

KR-But to actively proselytize our lack of belief is just weird.

This is real sticking point for a lot of us. But my observation is that there is a price to be paid whether one doesn't "attach" to an organization or tangibles, and if one does. The best thing is to strive for moderation, a middle way, perhaps?

I'd simply say that organizing nontheists serves the purpose of security [fighting for protection of civil rights and legislative consideration, for C/SS] for us----tho these goals can be accomplished by other groups as well.

And then there is values-oriented community/fellowship.

And there is information/knowledge/education---learning more about your metaphysical path by sharing and networking.

Then you get into the topic of activism and outreach. I think that is the trickiest of all. Not being visible enough brings consequences with it---not being find-able and not serving those that are looking for a supportive place to detox from superstition, and not promoting values that are pro-reason at a time when there is a big push by religious fantacism to promote superstition. There is a"cultural war" of sorts going on, and there is something real at stake I think.

I'm not sure there is a tidy way to avoid organizing or decisively takinga stand for or against superstition, and if there is ----it's gotta be really sophisticated to be both subtle and effective at stemming the tide of cults, extremism, and the hijacking and compromise of science/govt.

That all being said, I'm not sure that actively advancing reason and opposing superstition can be entirely avoided? Perhaps through proselytizing science and reason apart, and then hoping that leads to the person choosing to not believe in the supernatural as a by-product? When Galileo endorsed the heliocentric model, and when folks endorsed the round-earth model over flat-earth, they were certainly negating one idea in preference to another?

I'm not sure how to tease all this apart best for all. I definitely think we should strive to not be Kirk Cameron-like, nor Mormon-door-to-door-like. But there are definite pros to fellowship/community support, education/promotion of reason, outreach/visibility, and activism. One of the things that makes many of the religious that proselytize obnoxious is the extent of their intrusiveness, their arrogance and absolutism, and their use of blatantly faulty argumentation and poor-thinking [see Kirk Cameron's website]. Perhaps nontheists can simply do it with greater class and thoughtfulness and moderation, though I tend to agree that human beings act kinda similarly when they get in groups and promote agendas......dunno

[King Rat]

capsaicin67, I'm not ignoring you, you've just given me a lot to digest. I need to think about what you have posted.

[usartist]

Atheism: without a belief in the supernatural.
Come on Shake, didn't you get the memo? (http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=83247)

Atheism (http://www.onelook.com/?w=atheism&ls=a) - the doctrine or belief that there is no God

If you are going to be an atheist, at least keep yourself informed. We have no other method of conveying these important issues to you. Atheists are not going to start forming group meetings to keep atheists advised as to what atheism is all about.

[usartist]

capsaicin67, I'm not ignoring you, you've just given me a lot to digest. I need to think about what you have posted.
I can imagine it's difficult for you King Rat, because what is being described is exactly what I refer to as an "atheist religion organization."

That is all it is. There is no worship of any deity, and there is no forced mind control.

Atheists just getting together to support each other in an effort to promote atheism, and the better evolution of Mankind.

[King Rat]

You are what makes it difficult usartist. If the brave new atheist world is populated by carbon copies of you, I want nothing to do with it. My biggest stumbling block against the realization of your atheistic utopia is YOU sir! :banghead:

How many more times are you going to try to tell me what I should think?

[AspenMama]

usartist-- If I were still a moderator here, I'd officially ask you to play nice.


On another note:

Atheists just getting together to support each other in an effort to promote atheism, and the better evolution of Mankind.
Colorado Atheists in Action (http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=83126) ;)

[xxthe_leewitxx]

usartist-- If I were still a moderator here, I'd officially ask you to play nice. As a current wearer of the moderator hat, I would like to offically make that request... official.

Thank you,

the Leewit

[Writer@Large]

What AspenMama and xxthe_leewitxx said. This is supposed to be the *positive* atheism forum.

--W@L

[usartist]

This is not to say, of course, that some atheists aren't anti-religion. There are some of those, but the definition is more one of neutrality rather than antagonism.
That would define the Secular atheists and anarchists.

Secular atheists believe in governement, but that all personal religion is to be maintained privately, and not in the public discourse.

Anarchist do not believe in the establishment of government, and therefore by analogous comparison they would have no scruples to conform to a religion. Since the basis of religion is to regulate the behavior of individuals of a community (mind control).

[Tellurian]

With more and more intrusions of religion into our lives from the government I would think that atheists would want to form groups to organize responses to government officials regarding intrusive religious issues.

I also think that Atheists would want to form groups in order to help teach people the other side of the sales pitches they are receiving from the evangelicals and to provide information to those people who are doubting their religious indoctrinations and are seeking alternatives to religion.

Simply just the meeting with other Atheists would give more Atheists the feeling they are not alone in a society where religious beliefs are a regular feature of TV shows, movies, music,etc., but Atheist views are rarely found.

It seems to me that the massive efforts being pushed by religious organizations for more religion in American society should be countered by some form of widespread alternative before we start seeing our Democracy slowly start slipping more and more toward a theocracy.

T

[Javaman]

I wouldn't mind the opportunity to gather and enjoy the comraderie offered by something church-like. Too bad there's not something akin to The North Texas Church of Freethought (http://church.freethought.org/) around my neck of the woods.

[WNCAtheists]

Well, Javaman,
The North Texas Church of Freethought didn't exist, until those who wanted such a place
created it.

There are other people out there who are interested in just such a community too.

They're not just in Texas, or California, or North Carolina.

Those who want it bad enough work towards it.

Those of us who have been working toward building communities for the godless should be helping others to do the same.

Who else here has helped another group form?

Who would be interested in helping groups get started?

Many have touted the benefits of atheist organizations, who thinks that such organizations are beneficial enough to put forth the effort to help start new groups?

If you'd like to start a group, or help others to start groups, then do it!
If you'd like help finding others, I for one would be glad to help.

Darrell
Darrell@wncatheists.com

[Javaman]

Valid points, Darrell. Here's the problem I have... and perhaps others do as well: I'm scared. I'm genuinely afraid of what my neighbors would think and do if I was "out of the closet". Work was (and mostly still is) OK because the people there know me very well and have a good understanding of what makes me tick. They realize I don't eat babies or sacrifice animals (much) and are a smart bunch of folks. At one point, about half the office was made up of some form or another of freethinkers. Now, it's just me and a pagan.

My neighbors, on the otherhand, are different. They're normal. I don't want to risk what I have.

Why does it have to be this way?

[joedad]

I recently attended an organizational meeting for CFI Pittsburgh, which my wife found out about by going to an atheist meet-up. It's quite satisfying to be in a room with fifty or sixty other skeptical people. This was the first such experience for me.

In this area when some group or organization convenes a panel to discuss for example "What is god?" there's never an atheistic or skeptical perspective. I personally would love to participate in such a discussion. We talked about those things, about a schedule for future meetings, about the Pledge issue, and lots of other things concerning activism and simple group support. I even met someone who does secular services.

I certainly look forward to participating in the future, and encourage people to seek out such groups.

There was some discussion about that fear factor and atheism, with many people being in the closet, but I remember a few, who like myself, are out and experiencing negligible negative feedback. I've even considered reconnecting to some old local contacts, just to let them know that I'm interested in participating in any discussions on the subject.

[Javaman]

I'm glad things were good for you, joedad. I'm not so sure things would be the same here in Nebraska. Especially given statements in our letters to the editors like this one last week:
The further our society gets away from God's moral standards, the more we will be raising children with no firm moral compass. This is not an expression of hatred to anyone; it is an expression of my religious beliefs that should be respected.
At least this is one of the milder ones. I thinks I'll go find out if there's UU church nearby. Then I'd have to convince my wife to go. She'd likely think I was on the verge of converting if I brought up attending a "church" though. My two bathroom reading books are both about Paul so she's already a bit weirded out.

[WNCAtheists]

Are you familiar with any of these groups, Javaman?

http://www.nebraskaatheists.org/

http://www.unl.edu/caa/

http://www.reason.ws/

What sort of relationship do you have with your 'normal' neighbors?

Is there any reason that they would have to know that you wre getting together with other atheists?

Would you have to tell the folks at work what you do outside of work?

Do you prefer to live your life in fear? The ONLY life you've got?

So many of us are absolutely PHOBIC when it comes to being who we really are.
I have suggested before that we REALLY NEED a survey of American attitudes toward non-believers. Somerthing to give us an idea of what people really think about us, so if there actually IS something for all of us to fear then we could put a finger on it and work to change the situation.

My S.O.'s mother is a Jehova's Witness. (She even saved me a newspaper clipping of an article that I had published regarding atheism)

I have spoken to people of all sorts of faiths (Baptists, Presbyterians, Methodists, non-denominationals, pagans, generic 'spiritual' folks) and NEVER a sour word.

You may be surprised to find that some of the people you think are believers, aren't.

@ 25% of Catholics don't believe in 'God',
@ 10% of Protestants don't believe in 'God'.
@ 50% of Jews don't believe in 'God'.

Religion, and belief are NOT the same thing. Just because someone attends a church doesn't mean that they necessarily view the world that differently from you. (unfortunately, despite not believing, fielty to their community may sway them toward actions that they would not commit if they didn't feel that they 'belonged' to the group).

You could start a group on the sly, or attend one of the groups in Nebraska if they're close enough.

Start putting out the feelers in regards to peoples reactions. Don't pronounce yourself an atheist at first if you're that scared. But realize that your fear is NOT based on any concrete evidence, and work to overcome that fear.

It would be a sad thing for us to live our lives in hiding and fear if we didn't really have to.

Darrell

[Javaman]

Are you familiar with any of these groups, Javaman?
http://www.nebraskaatheists.org/
http://www.unl.edu/caa/
http://www.reason.ws/
I hadn't seen the UNL site (then again, I'm not so young anymore). The other two I'd looked at. I was a bit dissapointed that the forum link at the http://www.nebraskaatheists.org/ page was dead.
What sort of relationship do you have with your 'normal' neighbors?
Cordial but they are mostly Roman Catholic. I grew up in Cincinnati and lived in a mostly Catholic neighborhood but right on the edge of a very large Jewish community. The friends of mine that were raised Catholic aren't any longer (Catholic, that is ;) ). These folks here (I've only lived here for 3 years) seem much more devout.
Is there any reason that they would have to know that you wre getting together with other atheists?
Not at all.
Would you have to tell the folks at work what you do outside of work?
I'm well known, now (I think) for being an atheist at work so there's no problem there. I suppose my issues really are that I don't have a belief in the supernatural just like I don't own a motorcycle. I don't think about either one on a daily basis. I get riled up when (and I'm rehashing a bit here) my morality or patriotism or general "goodness" get publicly questioned simply because of a lack of a god-belief.

Add to that, my wife is such a disinterested party here. She is also a non-believer but simply doesn't worry about it as much as I do. Since she's English, I think it's so much easier to be blase' since so many of her friends and neighbors back home also don't believe.
Do you prefer to live your life in fear? The ONLY life you've got?
I don't "prefer" to live in fear, I'm annoyed that I feel I have to.
So many of us are absolutely PHOBIC when it comes to being who we really are.
I have suggested before that we REALLY NEED a survey of American attitudes toward non-believers. Somerthing to give us an idea of what people really think about us, so if there actually IS something for all of us to fear then we could put a finger on it and work to change the situation.
I agree but I'm so damn lazy, I think I'll hold out hope that somebody else will take care of something like that. I'd love to see the results. Perhaps we are (I am) making mountains here.
My S.O.'s mother is a Jehova's Witness. (She even saved me a newspaper clipping of an article that I had published regarding atheism)

I have spoken to people of all sorts of faiths (Baptists, Presbyterians, Methodists, non-denominationals, pagans, generic 'spiritual' folks) and NEVER a sour word.

You may be surprised to find that some of the people you think are believers, aren't.

@ 25% of Catholics don't believe in 'God',
@ 10% of Protestants don't believe in 'God'.
@ 50% of Jews don't believe in 'God'.

Religion, and belief are NOT the same thing. Just because someone attends a church doesn't mean that they necessarily view the world that differently from you. (unfortunately, despite not believing, fielty to their community may sway them toward actions that they would not commit if they didn't feel that they 'belonged' to the group).

You could start a group on the sly, or attend one of the groups in Nebraska if they're close enough.
The one thing I might do is attend one of the coffee shop dealies in Omaha listed on the web page. I'd really need to think about whether or not I'd even want to broach the subject with my wife. I will say, though, that neither of us has made many really good friends since we've been here. I had one but he's off to medical school soon and I'll likely never see him again. My wife made a good friend as well but she recently moved to Chicago. Depending on how I bring up the subject, she may be cool about it. It's unfortunate that we live a bit out in the sticks. Not so far that we couldn't go up into town more often but that it really becomes kind of a pain in the ass.
Start putting out the feelers in regards to peoples reactions. Don't pronounce yourself an atheist at first if you're that scared. But realize that your fear is NOT based on any concrete evidence, and work to overcome that fear.

It would be a sad thing for us to live our lives in hiding and fear if we didn't really have to.

Darrell
Agreed. Thanks for your input.

[Shake]

Come on Shake, didn't you get the memo? (http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=83247)

Atheism (http://www.onelook.com/?w=atheism&ls=a) - the doctrine or belief that there is no God

If you are going to be an atheist, at least keep yourself informed. We have no other method of conveying these important issues to you. Atheists are not going to start forming group meetings to keep atheists advised as to what atheism is all about.Apparently I did not get that memo. I guess I'm more of a metaphysical naturalist type atheist. My feelings echo what cpickett said (http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showpost.php?p=1555574&postcount=3) early on in that thread. So, while I see the point that an atheist could believe in non-god-like supernatural phenomena, I don't see where a thinking atheist would.

But you seem to have not focused on my main point, which was that DougP's friend made the mistake of assuming that all atheists are anti-religion. This is simply not the case. Many atheists are of the "live and let live" mind; a more neutral approach to dealing with theists.

By the way, your last paragraph above seems to take on somewhat of a hostile tone. This is not appreciated. These forums have been and continue to be a source of education for both atheists and theists alike. Keep informed? That's what many here are trying to do.