My daughter and Atheism...

[TySixtus]

Mods, don't know if this belongs here, but the goal is 'positive Atheism', so thats' why I dropped it here....

Anyways, let me start with a small story.
I'm currently in the US Navy, stationed in San Diego. Before I joined, my girlfriend and I were both students at a mega-Roman Catholic HS, where abstinence was the only option for preventing pregnancy. (I am living proof, by the way, that the bullshit doesn't work!) Suffice to say, she got pregnant and Rachelle was born in December of 99. She is a cutie pie! :D

As they are wont to do, our relationship took a sour turn, and the mother and I broke off our relationship shortly thereafter. (Sounds like an episode of Springer.) A few years after that, the mother also handed over her custody of our child to her mother (Rachelle's grandmother) who is now pretty much raising her. I'm on the the other side of the country; though I still have my legal parental rights, I have no custody since I'm in the military.

Here is the rub. I like Rachelle's grandmother; she is a wonderful lady, and fearlessly stepped up to help two stupid teenagers deal with their disaster. My problem is that she is one of those lukewarm Christians. By this I mean she has no real convictions (from what I can tell) either way, in that she'll take whatever she's told from whoever tells it. She has, therefore, left Rachelle at the tender mercies of Bible and Sunday school, which of course, as a four year old, she loves. (She doesn't really understand any of it, yet, it's just a fun thing to do on a Sunday instead of boring-ass Church.) In other words, if Rachelle is being fed Fundie crap, Grandma might reinforce it. If she's fed liberal 'everyone is going to heaven cause god loves you' christianity, she'll enforce that, too.

I, of course being an Atheist, find her religious upbringing objectionable. I can't really do anything about it, though. I could make a stink about it, get lawyers, make it ugly, but that's not what I want. It's not good for any of us, and would damage the relationship I have with Grandma, which is excellent right now.

So I've taken a stance of 'damage control'. I intend to get custody of Rachelle once I'm done with the Navy and get settled after I finish my degree. (About another two years.) The whole problem with this is how I should go about doing it when I get her back.

Any parents out there with any ideas? Should I just tell her 'Well dear, everything you've been taught about God is bullshit.' Or 'I hate to tell you this, but...' She'll be seven, past the age of what I like to call 'automatic influence' (when a child just does what their parents do, because mom and dad are the ultimate figures) and able to think for her self, to some degree. If she likes Church, should I continue to let her go? Or just cut it off? Or maybe slowly wean her off of it? Start by chipping away at all the built up years of propaganda and horseshit?

Or am I just nuking this? :confused:

Anyways, any thoughts or ideas are appreciated. I can't be the only parent who has gone through this, so I'm wondering what the effective strategies are. I want her to have the info that I never had, and make decisions based on logic and critical thought, as opposed to a fear of an eternal fire pit.

Ty

[Enai]

Wait until she asks and then answer honestly. You might also answer the standard "Some people believe a, the muslims believe b, I believe c, and there are many more beliefs out there" If you think she can understand it.

Enai

[Demosthenes]

How often do you see your daughter or communicate with her? By keeping in touch at all times, you can then take advantage of that to try to reinforce nonreligious ideas, critical thinking skills, or even take her on a naturalistic or scientific trip like to the Yellowstone or something. Don't just stand by passively and wait till you have custody of your child, get actively involved with her upbringing now.

[Adora]

I think taking custody is a good idea, especially if you are very passionate about such subject. Could you possibly ask grandma to try and give her a wider religious view, for example, teach her a little about other religions as well from the liberal Christian "they all worship the same god" standpoint?

I also think encouraging critical thinking in her is your best option. Ask her what she learned, then, like little children do, keep asking her why and get her to think about it. If she gets back to "because the Bible says so" answer point out to her that other religious texts also say different things and claim divine authorship. Do the same for other discourses, when you talk to her about other things like books she reads and what she learns in class (though obviously, not to the same extent). Encourage the skeptic in her :)

[ThePhoenix]

So I've taken a stance of 'damage control'. I intend to get custody of Rachelle once I'm done with the Navy and get settled after I finish my degree. (About another two years.) The whole problem with this is how I should go about doing it when I get her back.

Any parents out there with any ideas? Should I just tell her 'Well dear, everything you've been taught about God is bullshit.' Or 'I hate to tell you this, but...' She'll be seven, past the age of what I like to call 'automatic influence' (when a child just does what their parents do, because mom and dad are the ultimate figures) and able to think for her self, to some degree. If she likes Church, should I continue to let her go? Or just cut it off? Or maybe slowly wean her off of it? Start by chipping away at all the built up years of propaganda and horseshit? I hope you realize that you sound exactly like christians who complain about their children being taught secular, atheistic notions. Given that, your claim to logic and critical thought is just a little suspect.

[TySixtus]

I hope you realize that you sound exactly like christians who complain about their children being taught secular, atheistic notions. Given that, your claim to logic and critical thought is just a little suspect.

How about, if you have nothing positive to say concerning the OP, shut the hell up? This was not a debate thread- it was a question thread. Other people were nice and civil, and offered helpful advice. You (I'm guessing you're Christian) on the other hand, decided to get personal, and inflammatory. No wonder the world hates you people so much.

Let me offer some advice. Stick to the topic. You can learn a lot here; I think that, honestly, some of the smartest people in the world post on this board, just from what I've seen. You couldn't ask for a better resource to 'figure it all out'. But if you come in here swinging at people, instead of arguments, these guys and gals will chew you up and spit you the fuck out, and send you home crying. Sadly, this seems to be the pattern with you Christians that visit this board. I say 'visit' because most of you don't last long. Kudos to the ones that do; they don't sound like you, that's for sure.

Back to the OP, (if you even read it). I claimed I was unsure if I should let her go to Church if she still likes it. Let me explain. I have no problem with my daughter finding her own beliefs. Unlike Christianity, I don't have to "get 'em while they're young" because of the blatant transparency of my doctrine. I am confident that, once faced with obvious truths and logical deductions, she will want to learn the truth. My problem was how to go about doing it. And, when all is said and done, if she still wants to pray to a magical sky man, and believe in the magical undeadening of his son, then, fine. She's my daughter, and I love her. I won't burn her in a pit of eternal hellfire for wanting to believe different.

[TySixtus]

How often do you see your daughter or communicate with her? By keeping in touch at all times, you can then take advantage of that to try to reinforce nonreligious ideas, critical thinking skills, or even take her on a naturalistic or scientific trip like to the Yellowstone or something. Don't just stand by passively and wait till you have custody of your child, get actively involved with her upbringing now.


As I said, I'm in the Navy, and custody is not possible at this time. Due to the distance, and the ship's schedule, I get to see her about once a year. Usually around Christmas time. If I get custody, I'm out of the Navy, which means I have no job, which puts us both back at square one. Kind of a shitty trap to fall into.

The park is a good idea, though. The naturalistic trip is something I would have never though of. Are there any good science/ freethought books for kids that you've ever seen? Again, thanks for the comments. :cool:

Ty

[ThePhoenix]

How about, if you have nothing positive to say concerning the OP, shut the hell up? This was not a debate thread- it was a question thread. Other people were nice and civil, and offered helpful advice. You (I'm guessing you're Christian) on the other hand, decided to get personal, and inflammatory. No wonder the world hates you people so much.I just found it amusing that I've heard literally the exact same wording from fundimentalists. Sorry if you don't find that at all funny.

Let me offer some advice. Stick to the topic. You can learn a lot here; I think that, honestly, some of the smartest people in the world post on this board, just from what I've seen. You couldn't ask for a better resource to 'figure it all out'. But if you come in here swinging at people, instead of arguments, these guys and gals will chew you up and spit you the fuck out, and send you home crying. Sadly, this seems to be the pattern with you Christians that visit this board. I say 'visit' because most of you don't last long. Kudos to the ones that do; they don't sound like you, that's for sure. Wow, I'm not going to last long because your superior logic will destroy me. I bow to your wisdom.

P.S. If you want your daughter to think like you do, indoctrinate her. If you want her to be a christian forbid her to go to church and preach a lot. If you want her to think for herself, do nothing at all. Thinking for yourself does not involve other people telling you how to do your thinking. I've been allowed to reach my own conclusions, as have many other people I know. It makes you a better person in the long run.

[Octavia]

Hi. I'd agree with many of the other posters here that getting involved now is preferable to waiting until later. I also think that you're right in trying not to make things nasty and alienate your daughter's grandmother - you don't want your child living in a war zone, and presumable nana's doing a good job in all other respects.

Call her (your daughter, that is). Send her presents - lots of books. They don't have to be science vs. religious ones, just as long as they help teach her to question. My favourite picture book as a child (I've just run upstairs to get it now) was really a seditious little piece about not blindly following the habits of the community around you. It was about a man called Mr. Plumbean, who lived in a very boring street where all the houses looked the same, until he woke up one day and decided he wanted to live in his dream house - he painted his boring house all sorts of bright colours, planted palm trees and kept an alligator on the lawn as a pet. The neighbours of course were horrified, and tried to get him to put his house back the way that it was, so it would fit in. One by one they tried to make him see 'sense' and one by one he infected them with imagination. The book is called "The Big Orange Splot", and it's by Daniel Manus Pinkwater. If you can hunt up a copy somewhere (probably on a second hand site like abe.com) then your daughter may love it as much as I did. (My advice? make sure it comes to you first so you can read it yourself :D ).

Also, you could try sending her age appropriate stories of myths and legends from other cultures - that will expose her to differing religious experiences. You say that you're in the Navy - do you travel overseas a lot? Try sending her little local gifts with letters explaining them - a postcard with a Buddha statue on it, or an Evil Eye necklace from Turkey, stuff like that.

Also, don't worry if she's being exposed to Christianity. As she grows, she's going to be exposed to all kinds of things that you might necessarily not want her to be. As long as you teach her to analyse and think for herself, then they won't do her any harm, and she will learn to take the good parts of it and leave the bad.

That's my two cents anyway.

Cheers, Octavia.

[TySixtus]

Wow, I'm not going to last long because your superior logic will destroy me. I bow to your wisdom.

You should.

Ty

[AspenMama]

If you want her to think for herself, do nothing at all. Thinking for yourself does not involve other people telling you how to do your thinking. I've been allowed to reach my own conclusions, as have many other people I know. It makes you a better person in the long run.

But wouldn't you agree that it is essential to give a child the tools to think for themselves? Are you advocating that atheists do not provide any sort of information to their children?

On another note, do you think you are a better person to come to a forum designed to promote positive atheism, and insult its members?

[DMB]

I agree with the advice to do what you can now to expose her to a broader view of religion/mythology.

When she is living with you, I would suggest that you don't mention church or Sunday school unless she does. If she asks why you don't go to church, explain as simply as possible. If she asks to go herself, let her. Children of seven-plus can know quite clearly what they want. Just try to make sure that she doesn't go to a blinkered fundy outfit.

I had a friend once who was brought up by atheist parents and at the age of seven she decided to go off to the local church and get baptised. The charms of the church wore off gradually and she became a Humanist.

If you have interesting and enjoyable alternative activities on offer for Sundays, church may look less attractive!

[Demosthenes]

I read so many books in my childhood. My parents were quite lax about what kind of books I got of course as long they weren't porno or such. A lot of the books were scientific in nature like children's books on the origins of Earth, evolution, dinosaurs, so on. Most of them my mother brought through national geographic society which publishes many excellent books for children. You might want to look into that. Also keep in mind your daughter's current interests. My interests oscillated all over the place ranging from scientific to paranormal and even new age when I was growing up. Obviously I grew up to became completely and definitely an atheist with many humanist ideas.

Don't despair if your daughter at first appears to be veering towards somewhat unsavory interests, it's only normal part of the curious child's exploration. I remember how worried my parents were but really, I learned a lot just by reading. Maybe you should get some naturalistic books tailored to your daughter's current interests. The point is not to get her to dive in cold turkey at once. Don't worry if she doesn't read all the books immediately, it may take her some time depending on her current interests for example, suppose she likes beaches, you could find books on ocean, ocean life, and beaches for her. Also get her books on things yo find interesting, like the origins of the solar systems and so on. I find it most useful to give children information on how things got started up in the first place, it provides a good framework for all other things you know?

OH yeah, get her a subscription to the National Geographic magazine. I've been reading it ever since I can remember. Probably since I was 5 or so, for the pictures at first if not the articles. She'll love you for it forever.

Sorry to ramble on, obviously I'm quite a bibliophile. I'll look for children's books that I had and pass you along the names.

[Adora]

OH yeah, get her a subscription to the National Geographic magazine. I've been reading it ever since I can remember. Probably since I was 5 or so, for the pictures at first if not the articles. She'll love you for it forever.

Whilst I like some of the photographic talent in National Geo, they're not exactly the most brilliant fact-checkers sometimes...

[capsaicin67]

When I was a kid reading also figured prominently in my formation. I was given magazine subscriptions at an early age, usually wildlife and nature related, because fortunately I was more interested in that than some other junk. But I reada broad range of material and that gave me access to ideas. We went to museums/historical attractions. Spent outdoors time. Field trips. Cosmos on PBS, that sort of thing.

I would say that I read an inordinate amount of biographies of famous people for juveniles. I don't know how many kids today are reading books about Will Rogers let alone Luther Burbank. I think that was really afantastic thing to get me thinking of "regular kids" growing up into extraordinary people, and it was just such a stark contrast to the superstitious nonsense that I heard at church.

The kid that learns to read and enjoy it has a skill for the rest of their life that will allow and foster exposure to new information and exploration.

[The Other Michael]

Don't forget the science fiction/fantasy books! Stretch her mind with far flung universes and strange aliens. Once she gets used to that it can be easy to see stories of angels and men being swallowed by fish as more fiction (though not terribly well written fiction).

cheers,
Michael

[ThePhoenix]

But wouldn't you agree that it is essential to give a child the tools to think for themselves? Are you advocating that atheists do not provide any sort of information to their children?

On another note, do you think you are a better person to come to a forum designed to promote positive atheism, and insult its members?
No, I'm arguing that indoctrination is not going to give anyone the tools to think for themselves, no matter what idea you are using for doctorine.

On another note: :boohoo:

[AspenMama]

No, I'm arguing that indoctrination is not going to give anyone the tools to think for themselves, no matter what idea you are using for doctorine.
No one here has suggested indoctrination.

On another note: :boohoo:
Brilliant response. I'm officially requesting that you be pested from this forum. Mods?

[Writer@Large]

<modhat>
Let's focus on the OP, folks. This debate isn't welcome in PA&SA, and is suited to GRD or other upper fora.
</modhat>

--W@L

[TySixtus]

Tried to post some responses last night, but my IP was screwey.

Anyways, thanks for the input, guys! It really is helping me. I just talked to my mom yesterday about my being Atheist. She took it well- too well. I think she didn't take me seriously, and perhaps thinks this is a phase I'm going through. Oh well.

About the OP:

Whilst I like some of the photographic talent in National Geo, they're not exactly the most brilliant fact-checkers sometimes...

What do you mean? I've never noticed any problems with thier fact checking- do you have any examples? This is interesting, I'd like to hear more. I've always loved that magazine (my dad got it for 20 years).

Don't forget the science fiction/fantasy books! Stretch her mind with far flung universes and strange aliens. Once she gets used to that it can be easy to see stories of angels and men being swallowed by fish as more fiction (though not terribly well written fiction).

I agree. I grew up with that stuff, and it greatly shaped my thinking on theology. Seeing how a fake legend can grow made me realize how a real legend can do the same.

Ty

[capsaicin67]

Don't get all caught up in the fear of "indoctrination" or "proselytization" IMO. Parents teach their kids right from wrong, better from worse, skills on navigating life.

You wouldn't teach your kid to shoot up heroin, nor would you teach them that heroin is the same thing as having a beer. Nor would you likely start them drinking beer at an early age either. It also has a lot to do with context, what you model, consistency in your behavior, thinking, and message----your modeling as it were.

It's also worth noting that people learn what "comforts" them at an early age sometimes, or at least pick up predispositions for types of self-comforting. Some of it also has to do with genetic factors that make people predisposed to certain types of self-comforting. Teaching/modeling healthy coping skills, having fun and comfort and security in settings that are wholesome, all that is stuff that if they expereince it young, they will gravitate toward more easily later, too.

I would no more read my child Bible stories than I would send them spam to their email. The dominant religions are brainspam, IMO, and they have a different level of toxicity than Norse mythology or Aesop's Fables in my opinion, because they are presented/marketed as "real" by much of the planet. Personally, I would try and make sure their immunization was built up a bit and then later introduce some Bible stories for discussion/comparison depending on how things were going. I wouldn't want them to associate bedtime/comfort/security with Xianity at an early developmental age. It could work out, but that's simply my angle on it for discussion.

But you have said that you may not be able to be the primary role model/nurturer for a cpl years, so hey, a lot of us came through serious brainspamming and still got hooked on truthseeking---don't sweat it. There are lots of things that can happen to make a person gravitate toward one thing or another as they develop and you will have a lot of time to invest and spend later it sounds like to sponsor wonderful interactions and exploration and exposure to ideas and curiosity and skepticism and adventure! [not saying you shouldn't be absolutely as involved as possible starting right now, you should of course]

My parents indoctrinated me to religion about 25% and science, rational problem solving and skepticism, somewhat inadvertently, about 75%. The thing about their "indoctrination" that drove me away from it was not that they told me it was what I should believe----they told me many things that *were* true and that were useful, too. The aspect that stuck in my craw, was that it was so clearly *not consistent* with the other stuff that did seem to be true.

It wasn't just that they said it was right, it was that it was so clearly wrong, and it was the hypocrisy specifically that came with the package that repelled me. Even the good messages it offered they did not live up to consistently, and they cherry-picked. They would embrace a totally zany passage, however, and employ it to manipulate us or justify some whack idea they had. It was just clear that it was a realm where otherwise fairly consistent people were prone to inconsistent thinking and behavior and hypocrisy. Frankly, I was working on being pathologically honest, and religion was the arena that obstructed the same commitment to truthseeking that I was learning to embrace elsewhere. It also did not seem to "solve" realworld problems, and often led people astray or into psychological conflicts and unhappiness. I was probably lucky it didn't "comfort" me.

It wasn't that they were fairly decisive about teaching religion as fact----it was that it was wrongheaded and inconsistent with everything else and so full of hypocrites and manipulators and abusers that turned me off ultimately.

OTOH, I have a mild aversion to boiled potatoes to this day because they ritually abused me with forcing me to eat them q day for umpteen years, and that had nothing to do with truth---that had to do with oppressive, aggressive, persistent pushing of an agenda that I made clear gave me displeasure, discomfort, and at the very least was too much of a thing that I had some reservations about!

So moderation and taking the child's own inclinations and preferences into account is important too, that's worth noting probably. Even a "not bad" idea can be inflicted in a"bad" way or one that encourages it to become a lightning rod for rebellion.

But many situations are different, and you seem like a curious person with a desire to try and do it the best way you can. If that is true, and it stays that way, you'll probably do ok!