Anti-theist behavior!

[coberst]

Agnostic

In the matter of the existence or nonexistence of a Supreme Being--of one or more gods, of a supernatural being--my view is that any conclusion that leads a person to either position is equally absurd.

Reason is the only human faculty capable of determining truth. The imagination is the faculty that brings into play the matter of a supernatural being. While we are capable of imagining a supernatural being we are not capable of ascertaining anything about the existence of a supernatural realm because reason is a faculty limited to that which is bounded by space and time. By definition that which is supernatural is beyond space and time. Therefore, agnosticism is the only rational position. Human beings cannot know anything about this imaginary supernatural.

I am 70 years old and only in the last few months have I become aware of the forums by groups who are anti-theist. The most striking thing that first meets my eye is the religious content of these anti-theist forums. I suspect one would not find more discussion of religion at a Southern Baptist Convention. These forums are fixated on religion.

I suspect that we might be smart to take up a collection and hire a psychiatrist to explain this behavior. The first thing that pops into my mind is that this concentration on theism by anti-theist might be similar to penis envy ascribed to young women by Freud.

I suspect that if we secular humanists managed to develop a positive agenda that we could promote with enthusiasm we might be transformed into a positive force in the world. Rather than…

[Prof]

Agnostic

I suspect that we might be smart to take up a collection and hire a psychiatrist to explain this behavior. The first thing that pops into my mind is that this concentration on theism by anti-theist might be similar to penis envy ascribed to young women by Freud.


Sorry, you are here too late. A collection was taken up some time ago and the psychiatrists are currently busy attempting to understand the Christian Right's obsession with homosexuality.

Prof.

[MachineGod]

Agnostic

In the matter of the existence or nonexistence..…



Too true.

I have crossed that thought many times in these forums to the extent that “atheist� forums concentrate so much on these beliefs in God. Even to the extent that they deny their belief, so far as it seems a non-believer would have something better to do with their time, other than contemplate existence or non-existence of God.

I have no choice in my belief in God. I believe in Him like I believe the outer universe is infinite. I can choose to accept or deny this belief, but I cannot choose to not believe. I do not “know� if this belief is true, and any honest believer or non-believer should say the same.

[secular buddhist]

Even to the extent that they deny their belief,
I, for one, have never denied my belief that God does not exist. Who are you referring to? Anyone in particular?


I have no choice in my belief in God.
Nor do I have any choice in my belief that there is no God. I can deny that I have this belief, I suppose, but I cannot choose of "ubelieve" that God does not exist.

But perhaps I don't understand the intended point of these posts?

[MachineGod]

I, for one, have never denied my belief that God does not exist. Who are you referring to? Anyone in particular?

I guess I should not have said as much as that. I can not speak for others, only myself.

[Prof]

Too true.

I have crossed that thought many times in these forums to the extent that “atheist� forums concentrate so much on these beliefs in God. Even to the extent that they deny their belief, so far as it seems a non-believer would have something better to do with their time, other than contemplate existence or non-existence of God.

I have no choice in my belief in God. I believe in Him like I believe the outer universe is infinite. I can choose to accept or deny this belief, but I cannot choose to not believe. I do not “know� if this belief is true, and any honest believer or non-believer should say the same.

What you boys seem to be missing is this: in most atheist's view there ain't no God. What there is, is a HUGE number of people who believe in God - billions on this planet - and as someone who lives among these folks it can't help but be an issue to me. I'm firstly fascinated by people's belief in things that, to me, appear exceedingly dubious. And, on a very practical level, my life is directly affected by the belief of many Theists, from friends on up to the political and world affairs spectrum. It's a very worrisome idea to me that a political leader who could rationalize that we are all going on to a blissful afterlife when we die would have his finger on "the nuclear button."

I think many atheists feel the same way: the drive isn't so much about the existence of God; it's about the existence of people's belief in God.

Prof.

[secular buddhist]

I think many atheists feel the same way: the drive isn't so much about the existence of God; it's about the existence of people's belief in God.
And I would add that what a lot of us atheists would like is not that people give up their belief in God, but they just quit using their belief in God as an excuse to make life miserable for the rest of us.

[Howard]

Agnostic
In the matter of the existence or nonexistence of a Supreme Being--of one or more gods, of a supernatural being--my view is that any conclusion that leads a person to either position is equally absurd. Perhaps you should understand people's positions before you start proclaiming what is and isn’t absurd. Around here that isn’t taken real well.

IMO (and it’s only that), the atheist position is pretty simple and quite reasonable. We do not believe there is sufficient evidence or sufficiently compelling arguments to believe in the existence of a Supreme Being. I do not see anything absurd about that. Just because I cannot demonstrate conclusively that something does not exist does not mean I should believe it does. There are all sorts of things that cannot be disproven conclusively, the existence of invisible demons floating about for example, but I don’t believe there are such things.

The burden of providing supportive evidence is on the shoulders of those making the positive claim… especially in the case of unproven phenomena such as supernatural creatures.


Reason is the only human faculty capable of determining truth. The imagination is the faculty that brings into play the matter of a supernatural being. While we are capable of imagining a supernatural being we are not capable of ascertaining anything about the existence of a supernatural realm because reason is a faculty limited to that which is bounded by space and time. By definition that which is supernatural is beyond space and time. Therefore, agnosticism is the only rational position. Human beings cannot know anything about this imaginary supernatural. It’s not a question of knowing or proving, it’s a matter of believing... believing what is likely or unlikely. From everything I’ve seen of the universe, the existence of all the magic sky fairies I've ever heard of is unlikely.

Since you used the phrase "Imaginary supernatural," apparently agnostics believe the same so I’d could just as easily assert that the atheist position is the only rational one… but I wouldn’t do that because it would create yet another atheist/agnostic firestorm.


I am 70 years old and only in the last few months have I become aware of the forums by groups who are anti-theist. The most striking thing that first meets my eye is the religious content of these anti-theist forums. I suspect one would not find more discussion of religion at a Southern Baptist Convention. These forums are fixated on religion. It’s an Existence of God forum, what do you think it should be fixated on, needle point?



I suspect that we might be smart to take up a collection and hire a psychiatrist to explain this behavior. The first thing that pops into my mind is that this concentration on theism by anti-theist might be similar to penis envy ascribed to young women by Freud. That’s too asinine an idea to even comment on.


I suspect that if we secular humanists managed to develop a positive agenda that we could promote with enthusiasm we might be transformed into a positive force in the world. Rather than… Why don’t you do it and not worry about what anyone else should or shouldn’t do. Besides, plenty of people here do exactly as you suggest, so before you start judging people here maybe you should get to know them?

I’d welcome you but I save that for people who show a little respect.

[dado]

it seems a non-believer would have something better to do with their time

you bet. either some serious insecurity or latent theism running rampant around these boards, imo. my favorite bit of hypocrisy is the atheist who commits the same logical absurdity as c'ian fundies: confusing "literally" with "literal" and proclaiming that if G-d speaks he only does so in literal terms.

<rolls eyes>

[Prof]

you bet. either some serious insecurity or latent theism running rampant around these boards, imo. my favorite bit of hypocrisy is the atheist who commits the same logical absurdity as c'ian fundies: confusing "literally" with "literal" and proclaiming that if G-d speaks he only does so in literal terms.

<rolls eyes>

You're right. Much better for a God to speak poetically or allegorically to his creation. That way his creation can have so much fun interpreting and misinterpreting what God wants us to understand. And, best of all, God gets to punish us for any misinterpretation. Brilliant!

Prof.

[dado]

Much better for a God to speak poetically or allegorically to his creation.

absolutely. G-d is nothing if not a poet, and there is no such thing as "literal poetry". well, none worth reading, anyway. apart from that, myth is far more powerful than history, if for no other reason than it cannot have its tenets challenged by archeological expeditions. :)

[Jade]

Agnostic

In the matter of the existence or nonexistence of a Supreme Being--of one or more gods, of a supernatural being--my view is that any conclusion that leads a person to either position is equally absurd.

Do you believe that a god or gods exist? If you do, you are a theist (one who has god-belief). If you do not, you are an atheist (one who lacks god-belief). There is no middle ground in this question. The position of 'agnostic' is an answer to an entirely different question; and even if you believe it is truly impossible to know whether gods exist or not, you still either have the belief that god(s) exist or lack that belief.

To give another example besides god-belief, I do not know whether or not sentient life exists in the Andromeda Galaxy and I don't see how we can ever know one way or the other (assuming such lifeforms haven't been transmitting gargantuanly powerful radio signals for millions of years). In this dearth of knowledge there are three positions I can take: i) I can believe that such life does not exist (perhaps with the justification that such life seems extremely rare in this galaxy, so why not our galactic neighbor?); ii) I can believe that such life does exist (perhaps with the justification that life seems to pop up wherever it possibly can, and that an entire galaxy gives plenty of room for even vanishingly small possibilities); or iii) I can lack both beliefs (and either be hovering uncomfortably on the fence, or else be entirely ignorant of the question at all). Yet, as you will notice, both (i) and (iii) involve the lack of the belief that intelligent life does exist in the Andromeda galaxy.

To bring this back to the question of the existence of god(s), anyone who lacks god-belief is an atheist -- that's just the simplest, clearest, and least problematic definition of what an atheist is. By this definition, 'atheism' includes everyone who believes that god(s) do not exist, and everyone who lacks both that belief and the belief that god(s) do exist (which you seem to do).

Reason is the only human faculty capable of determining truth. The imagination is the faculty that brings into play the matter of a supernatural being.
Would you care to define the words "reason", "truth" and "Supernatural"; and while you're at it, how about "natural"...

While we are capable of imagining a supernatural being we are not capable of ascertaining anything about the existence of a supernatural realm because reason is a faculty limited to that which is bounded by space and time.

Is it? Are you sure?

By definition that which is supernatural is beyond space and time.

Is it? Are you sure? What might that mean?

Therefore, agnosticism is the only rational position. Human beings cannot know anything about this imaginary supernatural.

So does this mean you also take other imaginary creatures seriously? If someone asks you whether dragons, unicorns, pixies, Jabberwockies, and Chimaera exist, do you say, "Well, maybe...", or do you say "No, I don't think so -- those are just imaginary creatures"?

I am 70 years old and only in the last few months have I become aware of the forums by groups who are anti-theist. The most striking thing that first meets my eye is the religious content of these anti-theist forums. I suspect one would not find more discussion of religion at a Southern Baptist Convention. These forums are fixated on religion.

Well, the whole point of many of these forums is to debate religion (such as "Existence of God", "General Religious Discussions", and "Church and State Separation"). If you ran across a forum dedicated to fencing, would you really be surprised if a lot of discussions about swords were going on?

I suspect that we might be smart to take up a collection and hire a psychiatrist to explain this behavior. The first thing that pops into my mind is that this concentration on theism by anti-theist might be similar to penis envy ascribed to young women by Freud.

And if you went to the "Apologetics" forum on the Theologyweb forum or a half-dozen others, you would find a great deal of atheist-bashing and discussions about why atheists are wrong and stupid and evil. Do these people also have an obsessive syndrome, or is such a concentration on that issue the natural result of it being the main focus and purpose of the forum?

I suspect that if we secular humanists managed to develop a positive agenda that we could promote with enthusiasm we might be transformed into a positive force in the world. Rather than…
We are a rather diverse and dispersed group of people here, because 'Atheists' are simply people who, for whatever reason, lack the belief that god(s) exist. We are not all secular humanists, though there are many such people here. But if you have some suggestions for how to do this, you could try the Positive Atheism and Secular Activism (http://www.iidb.org/vbb/forumdisplay.php?f=81) forum.

[Howard]

my favorite bit of hypocrisy is the atheist who commits the same logical absurdity as c'ian fundies: confusing "literally" with "literal" and proclaiming that if G-d speaks he only does so in literal terms.

<rolls eyes>
My favorite bit of hypocrisy is when theists come here and tell us all about God, especially what he does and doesn’t want human to do. Then when we start nailing them to the wall with specific questions about God, they run and hide behind, “Well, we mortals can never really know God.� One minute they know all about God and the next minute they know nothing about him. Very convenient knowledge… it comes and goes as necessary.

[dado]

My favorite bit of hypocrisy is when theists come here and tell us all about God

i assume you're talking about the "my way or the highway" conceptors of G-d? if so, i completely agree, they are as hypocritical as anybody.

[coberst]

Can you believe all the energy wasted on this non-sense. There must be many psychology books written on this fixation.

[secular buddhist]

Hello, coberst. You seem pretty fixated right now, if I may say so.

[Howard]

Can you believe all the energy wasted on this non-sense. There must be many psychology books written on this fixation.Can you imagine the energy wasted by people who are fixated on what others do? There must be many psychology books written on this fixation.

You see the door you came into? Well, it goes right back out.

[Biff the unclean]

Reason is the only human faculty capable of determining truth.
Okay
The imagination is the faculty that brings into play the matter of a supernatural being.
So observation shows us
While we are capable of imagining a supernatural being we are not capable of ascertaining anything about the existence of a supernatural realm because reason is a faculty limited to that which is bounded by space and time. By definition that which is supernatural is beyond space and time. Therefore, agnosticism is the only rational position. Human beings cannot know anything about this imaginary supernatural.
Except you have just explained why Agnosticism is invalid. To be Agnostic one must be lacking in knowledge one way or the other about God and you have already admitted that you do have information. You know that the supernatural is imaginary. You know that reason is confined by reality, or as you put it "space and time." You know that when something is imagined and it contradicts reality that it is not real.
So you could be an Agnostic about something like the Loch Ness Monster or Aliens from outer space. While they are apparently the work of fertile imaginations they don't actually contradict any rules of reality. There's nothing to prove that they are true but there's no valid reason that they would be impossible.
But, knowing what you already know about the supernatural you cannot claim to be Agnostic about it. If the "super" natural were real then the natural would only be an illusion. No "law of physics" would actually be a law but might or might not apply at the whim of the magical supernatural.
Physics, reality itself, is the valid reason why the imaginary supernatural is not a possibility. The only thing "beyond" space and time is fiction.

[NearNihil Experience]

Can you believe all the energy wasted on this non-sense. There must be many psychology books written on this fixation.


70 years old and still can't grasp that for some people, religion destroys their lives. Admittedly its not the majority, except for maybe on subtle unprovable levels. But trust me, their are plenty of folks out there reeling from a stint in a cult or corrupted fundamentalist sect, nursing mental trauma from Clergy, a girl being told by her father that God wants him to impregnate her...

...yeh, I find it fascinating, and I happen to be wasting alot of energy in an effot to become a Rehabilitation Specialist to help combat this and some of the other non-sense out there. Wacos and Jonestowns happen, Heaven's Gate happens, Colombines happen, traveling circus-gypsy-tent revival-con games happen...Sarin gas getting released in a Japanese sub-way happens...

...Some folks want help and need help to readjust and reconform to society. For some it may never happen or it may be too late...and the culprit is religion.

But studying and taking interest in religions is anything but wasted time and non-sense.



Metaphysically, however, we are on the same page...
In the matter of the existence or nonexistence of a Supreme Being--of one or more gods, of a supernatural being--my view is that any conclusion that leads a person to either position is equally absurd.

[john_v_h]

Agnostic
Reason is the only human faculty capable of determining truth. The imagination is the faculty that brings into play the matter of a supernatural being. While we are capable of imagining a supernatural being we are not capable of ascertaining anything about the existence of a supernatural realm because reason is a faculty limited to that which is bounded by space and time. By definition that which is supernatural is beyond space and time. Therefore, agnosticism is the only rational position. Human beings cannot know anything about this imaginary supernatural.Untrue. We know that such supernatural claims are imagined, and as products of the human imagination, are subject to evaluation on psychological and motivational grounds.

[sandlewood]

I agree with posts 6 and 7 above. When there are people who make policy decisions that affect my life and their decisions are based on their belief in a magic being they have no evidence for, how can you then say I’m wasting my time on a fixation?

[dado]

how can you then say I’m wasting my time on a fixation?

because you're posting about it here instead of pounding the pavement 24-7 in support of a candidate more in line with your world view.

[sandlewood]

because you're posting about it here instead of pounding the pavement 24-7 in support of a candidate more in line with your world view.

This is the 21st century; we use the internet now. This forum is one of the pavements. Besides, to me, the real way to impart change is to change ideas. That’s best done is places like this, not passing out campaign buttons.

[dado]

That’s best done is places like this, not passing out campaign buttons.

nice rationalization. completely wrong - but still nice.

[Kalkin]

nice rationalization. completely wrong - but still nice.

Nice post. Completely lacking in argumentation or point - but still nice.

Oh, and btw, I am most likely going to volunteer for a political campaign this summer (the only problem is I don't like Kerry much, so I'm still looking for something local with a candidate more to my tastes). I don't think you have the right to assume that most posters here take no action off the internet.

[dado]

I don't think you have the right to assume that most posters here take no action off the internet.

it's a safe assumption in a country where fewer than 1/2 the potential voters bother to show up at the polls.

[Biff the unclean]

it's a safe assumption in a country where fewer than 1/2 the potential voters bother to show up at the polls.
Rest assured that those very same church drives to get the religious right to the polls get we Atheists to vote also.

[Ellis14]

To be of any use, this thread needs to remain civil.

I am shipping it out of EoG anyway now to somewhere better suited.

Regards

Ellis10

[Arken]

I am an atheist. Now, I speak only for myself for all of the following.

First of all, I post here because I like to talk to intelligent, like-minded people. There are a lot of intelligent, like-minded folks on this forum. I don't post here because I want to achieve anything. I think that some of you in this thread are under a misguided idea that we are all activists on this forum. Although I am involved in plenty of real-world activism, I'm here because I gain pleasure for reading and participating in discussion. It's entertainment for me. You might as well criticize me for reading a book or watching a movie.

Secondly, I see a lot of satire on religious people on these forums but not that much true 'anti-theism' as has been suggested. I think there may well be atheists who will tell you that all theists are bad, should be forbidden from practicing, etc. but most atheists I've encountered, myself included, are very tolerant of most religious people. The only people we are intolerant of are those people who push their religions on us.

For example, after 9/11 I was as distraught as most others were, but when the president comes forward and orders a 'National day of prayer' I felt pushed upon to be a theist and more imortantly, left out for not being one. That is the sort of religion I am against. If you want to pray to your god, if you think praying to your god helps you, great. More power to you. Just understand that I do not want to pray to your god and I don't want to be told how I should pray to your god and all the awful things that will happen to me if I don't pray to your god.

Even many extremely religious 'fundamentalists' don't do this. My wife's family are all Assembly of God pentacostals (the same as John Ashcroft) and her grandfather founded their local church. Not once have they ever asked either of us to come to church with them or even questioned our beliefs. They had an understanding that religious beliefs are personal and you don't get people to change by hounding them.

I think that most of the hostility some theists here encounter is when they come here with an adgenda. I personally have never berated a theist on this or any other forum (or indeed any other form of communication) just because they are theists. I don't recall ever seeing anyone on these forums berate a theist for that reason either.

If you feel that this is all a waste of time or that there is something wrong with these forums, I suggest you do what you would, I hope, do if there were something on TV you didn't want to watch- seek your entertainment or edification elsewhere rather than stay here and complain.

[Respectable Joe]

...For example, after 9/11 I was as distraught as most others were, but when the president comes forward and orders a 'National day of prayer' I felt pushed upon to be a theist and more imortantly, left out for not being one. That is the sort of religion I am against. If you want to pray to your god, if you think praying to your god helps you, great. More power to you. Just understand that I do not want to pray to your god and I don't want to be told how I should pray to your god and all the awful things that will happen to me if I don't pray to your god...


Thanks, Arken. Enjoyed your thoughts.

Just one addition. "We" are not just left out of this new design for America, we were singled out as non-citizens and non-patriots of this country because of our lack of belief by our "leader" and his father both.

[BerntRostrom]

"We" are not just left out of this new design for America, we were singled out as non-citizens and non-patriots of this country because of our lack of belief by our "leader" and his father both.

I think this is very relevant.

Is it not more about defining who is in and who is out.

They want us to be out cause we say or tell them. Your into a big Grand Illusion step out of it and Get Real.

They don't want to hear that at all.

They depend on God to be for real. no illusion to them at all.

They see us as enemy.

some of us wnat to act like an enemy too. I did for many years. I hated all religious things unti lI suddenly felt them myself.

I am still as much atheist as ever but I dont' hate them anymore I oppose their unethical actions but to hate them would be to hate a biological sideeffect.


Edward O Wilson could be right about all this being an extra out of biological hardwiring of our brain to help our body survive.

Like how we aquire language. Children aqyuite their parents and peers language. They try to talk like Mom and Dad with them and like Peers with Peers.

We have Morror Neurons that is hardwired to mimic any social behavior we encounter. That is why it is soo unethical of religionists to have Sunday school for children. They are too vulnerable to get such illusions presented in that way to them.

As atheists we need to make our views shown to be solidaric with the social contract. We only accomplish this if we are caring people who are nice to know. Good neighbours as they say here.

We don't have to be fanatic "Patriots" but show that we care about others than ourselves.

[DMB]

I'm not quite 70, but only a few more years to go. I am surprised that in this day and age anyone should bother to refer to Freud and his bogus ideas such as penis envy. This is so clearly a case of boys thinking their dongs are important and that therefore girls must be missing out and feeling inadequate in some way because they can't have one. :rolleyes:

Having got that off my chest, I would like to second the views expressed by a number of posters. We live in a world dominated by mad religious beliefs. At the very best, we are supposed to "respect" these beliefs and not object too much when we get lectured by lofty ayatollahs and such like about how *god* wants us to lead our lives. If they were just politicians, it wouldn't be so bad, however stupid their ideas, but the parasitical religious leaders cry foul as soon as anyone criticises them or the enormous edifice they have constructed from a heated imagination.

Religion diverts resources from the basic needs of the humanity to the maintenance of its empire. It causes a great deal of unnecessary misery as soon as it tries to convert its doctrines into action.

I could go on and one about this, but it would be a diversion from the main topic.

Religion is the elephant in the room. It is hard to ignore and a bloody nuisance. I like coming here to meet people who are happy to be frank about this problem. IRL one is under a great deal of pressure to keep one's lip buttoned while fuming inwardly.

[Plognark]

Can you believe all the energy wasted on this non-sense. There must be many psychology books written on this fixation.

When you can show me that there are something like 5 billion fewer people who think that I should live my life as they see fit, i'll stop fixating on it. :mad:

No worries mods, I'll edit my own insults ahead of time <many things deleted here> :rolleyes: