Abortion is the murder of an innocent person

[Furyus George]

1) The topic of the debate.
Abortion is the murder of an innocent person. I will debate this statement to be true.

2) The participants of the debate, and what positions they will argue.
I challenge Prometheus_fr to this debate

3) The scope of the debate.
The debate shall be general in nature.

4) The length of the debate, in number of rounds.
I propose two rounds, with a third round as conclusion. As challenger, I feel I should go first.

6) The maximum length of each statement.
First round, 5000 word limit; second round 3000; conclusion 3000. Open to compromise.

7) The maximum duration between statements.
First post 21 days from the date debate agreed upon. First response 21 days. Second round response within 14 days. Conclusions concurrent within 7 days of end of second round.

8) The extent to which quotes and references from outside sources will be allowed.Open to compromise.

9) The starting date of the debate.
21 days from agreement to debate

10) Any additional rules or a debate format that debate participants must observe.
Prometheus_fr...?

Furyus George, wonders what he'll do without ad hominem

[StrictSeparationist]

Have you tried PMing Prometheus or otherwise bringing your challenge to his attention? This isn't one of the more widely-viewed fora. ;)

[Furyus George]

I left a note for him in a thread we have both participated in heavily, including posts today. I will PM him if he doesn't reply in the next few days. Unlike some posters around here, who will remain nameless, I won't demand an immediate response from Prometheus_fr.

I appreciate your suggestion however.

Furyus George, patiently

[Corvidae72]

If Prometheus_fr doesn't take you up. I would consider arguing the negative on the resolution "Resolved, Under most circumstances abortion is morally wrong."

[Prince Vegita]

I might suggest that George pay close attention to that topic modifier. Abortion isn't illegal and therefore by definition isn't murder. It would be better to focus on the morality of the issue.

[MonCapitan2002]

I might consider engaging in this debate with you if your chosen opponent declines your challenge and no one else steps in. Bear in mind that if I do, you should note that I have never been in a formal debate, so I may well not be much of a challenge.

[Furyus George]

I might suggest that George pay close attention to that topic modifier. Abortion isn't illegal and therefore by definition isn't murder. It would be better to focus on the morality of the issue.

Wyand, you make an excellent point, as does Corvidae72 by offering to possibly debate "the negative on the resolution 'Resolved, Under most circumstances abortion is morally wrong.'".

Noting that Prometheus_fr has yet to respond, I would like to ask the moderators of this forum to allow me to change the debate topic from "Abortion is the murder of an innocent person" to "Abortion is morally wrong." I removed the phrase "under most circumstances" because the result more closely resembles my original assertion. I would imagine, Corvidae72, that this would make arguing the negative easier rather than more difficult.

You can see, MonCapitan2002, that I am no great expert regarding debate, either. If this goes forth, it will be my first formal debate.

I must give Prometheus_fr ample opportunity to respond before I consider debating another opponent. I appreciate the comments and interest.

Furyus George, gets in well over his head, blissfully

[French Prometheus]

2) The participants of the debate, and what positions they will argue.
I challenge Prometheus_fr to this debate
OK. I'll take up the challenge though I don't really see what else we can say on this topic.

3) The scope of the debate.
The debate shall be general in nature.
Fine with me.

4) The length of the debate, in number of rounds.
I propose two rounds, with a third round as conclusion. As challenger, I feel I should go first.
OK.

6) The maximum length of each statement.
First round, 5000 word limit; second round 3000; conclusion 3000. Open to compromise.
My statements may be much shorter but I accept the word limit. If your arguments are good and convincing then you should be able to express them in a concise manner.

7) The maximum duration between statements.
First post 21 days from the date debate agreed upon. First response 21 days. Second round response within 14 days. Conclusions concurrent within 7 days of end of second round.
I prefer another 14 days for the conclusion. You know I have a busy schedule (and it'll soon get even busier).

8) The extent to which quotes and references from outside sources will be allowed.Open to compromise.
Let's keep those quotes very short and to the point. It's up to each of us to summarize the arguments from outside sources.

9) The starting date of the debate.
21 days from agreement to debate
OK

10) Any additional rules or a debate format that debate participants must observe.
Prometheus_fr...?
* As this is a formal debate, we should avoid fallacies.
I suggest you take a quick look at Logic & Fallacies (http://www.infidels.org/news/atheism/logic.html).
* Let's keep the issue of the origin of life on Earth out of this debate. I'm not interested in debating creationism.

[French Prometheus]

Noting that Prometheus_fr has yet to respond, I would like to ask the moderators of this forum to allow me to change the debate topic from "Abortion is the murder of an innocent person" to "Abortion is morally wrong."

I agree to challenge you on "Abortion is morally wrong". But then, again, there will be a lot of copy-and-paste since we've already debated the issue of the origin of morality. This new debate topic is more abstract and more general than the previous one.

[Furyus George]

Great! Thanks for taking up my challenge, Prometheus_fr.

My statements may be much shorter but I accept the word limit. If your arguments are good and convincing then you should be able to express them in a concise manner.

I expect I will be under the limit as well; this just gives us the room to expand if necessary.

I prefer another 14 days for the conclusion. You know I have a busy schedule (and it'll soon get even busier).

14 days it is for the conclusion. As for your schedule, don't hesitate to ask for an extension if need be. This is a formal debate, but the fate of the world does not hang in the balance. I don't have school to contend with, but my work schedule changes on a moment's notice, often.

Let's keep those quotes very short and to the point. It's up to each of us to summarize the arguments from outside sources.

Agreed.

As this is a formal debate, we should avoid fallacies. I suggest you take a quick look at Logic & Fallacies. Let's keep the issue of the origin of life on Earth out of this debate. I'm not interested in debating creationism.

Agreed.

I agree to challenge you on "Abortion is morally wrong". But then, again, there will be a lot of copy-and-paste since we've already debated the issue of the origin of morality. This new debate topic is more abstract and more general than the previous one.

Thank you for taking up the challenge. I will post my first round submission by July 2, 2004.

Furyus George, now has really stepped in it

[Furyus George]

I should add, for clarity's sake, the logic I will be using in my argument:

Killing an innocent person is morally wrong.

Abortion kills an innocent person.

Therefore, abortion is morally wrong.

Furyus George, less abstract

[StrictSeparationist]

14 days it is for the conclusion. As for your schedule, don't hesitate to ask for an extension if need be. This is a formal debate, but the fate of the world does not hang in the balance. I don't have school to contend with, but my work schedule changes on a moment's notice, often.


Extensions should only be requested due to unforseen circumstances beyond a participant's control. If either of you anticipates needing more time, please ask for longer intervals between posts.

Now, let me see if we've got the parameters set up:

1) Resolved: Abortion is morally wrong.

2) Furyus George will take the affirmative, Prometheus_fr the negative.

3) General, but completely excluding the origin of life on Earth.

4) Three rounds (the conclusion is considered a round).

5) Concurrently or in turns? This seems to have been skipped.

6) Round 1: 5k words. Rounds 2&3: 3k words.

7) Round 1: 21 days. Rounds 2&3: 14 days.

8) Quotes should be short and to the point. Summaries should be used when possible.

9) 21 days from agreement to debate. (Are you sure you want this? Generally what we do is set up the debate thread the same day the agreement is made, then the person set to make the first post has however many days agreed upon to post their first statement. As it now stands, Furyus George would have 42 days to make his opening statement, since the clock only starts after the debate begins.)

10) Logical fallacies should be avoided. (I'll have to ask Nightshade, but I believe our policy on rules like this is to have the debate participants enforce this sort of thing themselves. In other words, we aren't going to edit out fallacies. The subjectivity inherent in such moderation would surely give cause for complaint.)

[Furyus George]

Extensions should only be requested due to unforseen circumstances beyond a participant's control. If either of you anticipates needing more time, please ask for longer intervals between posts.

Agreed. Time hopefully won't be a problem. If Prometheus wants to make the intervals longer, I will accomodate him. I definitely don't want shorter intervals.

Now, let me see if we've got the parameters set up:

1) Resolved: Abortion is morally wrong.

Agreed.

2) Furyus George will take the affirmative, Prometheus_fr the negative.

Agreed

3) General, but completely excluding the origin of life on Earth.

Agreed

4) Three rounds (the conclusion is considered a round).

Agreed.

5) Concurrently or in turns? This seems to have been skipped.

I think taking turns is best. Prometheus_fr?

6) Round 1: 5k words. Rounds 2&3: 3k words.

Agreed.

7) Round 1: 21 days. Rounds 2&3: 14 days.

Agreed.

8) Quotes should be short and to the point. Summaries should be used when possible.

Agreed.

9) 21 days from agreement to debate. (Are you sure you want this? Generally what we do is set up the debate thread the same day the agreement is made, then the person set to make the first post has however many days agreed upon to post their first statement. As it now stands, Furyus George would have 42 days to make his opening statement, since the clock only starts after the debate begins.)

I'm confused here. What is the protocol for debates regarding who posts first? I assumed as challenger I would be posting first since it gives Prometheus an advantage of sorts. Pardon my ignorance.

10) Logical fallacies should be avoided. (I'll have to ask Nightshade, but I believe our policy on rules like this is to have the debate participants enforce this sort of thing themselves. In other words, we aren't going to edit out fallacies. The subjectivity inherent in such moderation would surely give cause for complaint.)

I'll do my best to avoid fallacies; I admitedly have a lot to learn about the art and science of debate. I agree with your statement about subjectivity.

Furyus George, clings to logical fallacies

[StrictSeparationist]

I'm confused here. What is the protocol for debates regarding who posts first? I assumed as challenger I would be posting first since it gives Prometheus an advantage of sorts. Pardon my ignorance.


The person who goes first is determined by the debators themselves. In this case, I understand that person to be you. All I was saying here was that a debator has some number of days to post a first round statement, and that time only begins after the official start of the debate. Thus, if we start the debate 21 days from now, you would have 21 days from that time to post your statement. 42 days total. I'm pretty sure this is not what you want, so I'm proposing making the official start date whatever day you come to a final agreement. If that is today, then you'll have 21 days from today (the start date) to post your first statement.

We still need final agreement from Prometheus on parameter 5, then we're good to go.

[Furyus George]

Thank you for the clarification, SS. You are correct, I would like to begin 21 days from the date of agreement. I'm sure Prometheus_fr will check in here soon to clarify parameter 5.

Again, thanks for the assist.

Furyus George, fallacy-free post

[KnightWhoSaysNi]

1) Resolved: Abortion is morally wrong.

3) General, but completely excluding the origin of life on Earth.

I just wanted to make sure that the scope and subject is clear. There are many people who would agree that abortion is morally wrong, but they would also argue that it should be legal. I just wanted to make sure of this -- did you guys want to debate on the morality of abortion or look at the legality of it? (or allow discussion of both?)

First post 21 days from the date debate agreed upon. First response 21 days. Second round response within 14 days. Conclusions concurrent within 14 days of end of second round.

As I understand this, you'd wish to have the first 2 rounds in turns and then the last round concurrent. We could do this if you both wish to. Since it's a short debate, we would discourage concurrent posts for all 3 rounds.

* As this is a formal debate, we should avoid fallacies.

I'm afraid that we can't enforce this as a debate parameter. If a debater makes a logic fallacy then it's up to his or her opponent to point that out. :)

Jason

[Furyus George]

I just wanted to make sure that the scope and subject is clear. There are many people who would agree that abortion is morally wrong, but they would also argue that it should be legal. I just wanted to make sure of this -- did you guys want to debate on the morality of abortion or look at the legality of it? (or allow discussion of both?)


I am interested in the morality of the issue, not, for the sake of debate, the legality. However, if Prometheus_fr wants to make a point using issues of legality, I don't wish to restrict his ability to do so.



As I understand this, you'd wish to have the first 2 rounds in turns and then the last round concurrent. We could do this if you both wish to. Since it's a short debate, we would discourage concurrent posts for all 3 rounds.


If Prometheus_fr doesn't object, we can scrap the concurrent final round. So I will be posting 1st, 3rd and 5th, he will be responding 2nd, 4th and 6th. OK with you, Prometheus_fr?



I'm afraid that we can't enforce this as a debate parameter. If a debater makes a logic fallacy then it's up to his or her opponent to point that out. :)

Jason


I think you've got no worries there!

Furyus George, two consecutive posts, no fallacies

[sharon45]

It is already very clear to me that abortion is the murder of an innocent person, but as far as it being 'morally wrong', that can not be shown.

[KnightWhoSaysNi]

I just wanted to summarize again the debate parameters. Unless either of you wish to make further amendments, we just need Prometheus_fr's confirmation and we're ready to go.

1) The topic of the debate:

Resolved: abortion is morally wrong.

2) The participants of the debate, and what positions they will argue:

Furyus George will take the affirmative and Prometheus_fr will oppose.

3) The scope of the debate:

The debate shall be general in nature but will exclude arguments relating to the origin of life on Earth. The morality regarding the legality of abortion can also be addressed.

4) The length of the debate, in number of rounds:

3 rounds.

5) Whether statements will be made concurrently or in turns, and if the latter, who goes first:

In turns and Furyus George will go first.

6) The maximum length of each statement:

Round 1: 5000 words; Rounds 2 & 3: 3000 words.

7) The maximum duration between statements.

3 weeks for the opening statements (Round 1) and 2 weeks for Rounds 2 & 3.

8) The extent to which quotes and references from outside sources will be allowed:

Quotes should be kept short and to the point and summaries should be used when possible.

9) The starting date of the debate:

Immediately.

10) Any additional rules or a debate format that debate participants must observe:

Standard format.

[French Prometheus]

I agree to the rules.

[Furyus George]

I agree to the rules.

Thank you, Prometheus_fr. I will have my first argument posted no later than July 4, 2004.

Furyus George

[StrictSeparationist]

The parameters have now been established and agreed upon, so I'll close this thread and open a debate thread in FDD.