When did Christ say he would return? -- Jon Promnitz vs. Jason Gastrich

[KnightWhoSaysNi]

This thread has been set up for a formal debate between Jon Promnitz and Jason Gastrich on the following resolution:

Resolved: Jesus Christ promised to return before his generation passed away, not a future generation.

Jon Promnitz will go first, taking the affirmative, and Jason Gastrich will oppose. The debate will have 6 rounds as agreed to from the parameters (http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=90978).

A Peanut Gallery (http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?p=1705134#post1705134) is set up in the Biblical Criticism & History forum for the rest of us to comment on the debate.

Good luck to both participants!

Jason

[Jon Promnitz]

Hello,

I would like to begin by thanking Jason for agreeing to participate in this debate, Nightshade for his moderation, the readers for showing interest, and doubtingthomas for referring me to a helpful website.

My name is Jon Promnitz and I will argue that Jesus promised to return before his generation passed away.

Note: I did a lot of ‘cutting’ to stay under the limit. Because of this, you will have to look up a few more verses. For this I apologize. Go to crosswalk.com and click on Bible Study Tools.

Before continuing, please read Luke 21:1-38 in the KJV and The Goods News Translation.
[crosswalk.com (http://www.crosswalk.com) has numerous versions and is my main resource for this debate]

Commentary and Context of Matthew 24:1-51 KJV
Throughout chapter 24, Jesus and his disciples converse directly, even privately.

Matthew 24
1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

-The disciples approach Jesus privately, and say, "Tell us..." NOT, "tell them..." Also, the "sign of thy coming and of the end of the world" are linked conjointly. One of the most important aspects when studying scripture is the context and setting of passages. In context, it is clear that Jesus and the disciples are speaking with each other, discussing the end of the world. So far, the reading is set nearly 2000 years ago in Jerusalem. More specifically, the temple and upon the mount of Olives.


4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

-Jesus issues a direct WARNING to the disciples, to take affect immediately. Let no man decieve "you".


5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

-People pretended to be Christs within Jesus' generation. The disciples did hear of wars and rumours of wars, and the coming war that would result in the temple's destruction. These signs were fulfilled. The word "shall" is translated from the Greek word mello. It means "to be about" or "to be on the point of doing something".


7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.

-In Matthew 28:2 and Acts 16:26, there were large earthquakes. Acts 11:28 shows that a great famine occurred. These signs were fulfilled. The word "sorrows" was taken from the Greek work odin. It is used in regards to intolerable anguish; "the pain of childbirth." The Good News Translation says in 24:8, All these things are like the first pains of childbirth. A 2000 year gap between the first pains of childbirth and the result of childbirth is a long time. It was DUE - if you will, to happen soon.


9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

-The persecution was to be very great, which is shown in scripture. In Acts 5:18, the apostles are put in prison. Later in Acts 5:40, they are flogged and ordered to never again speak in the name of Jesus. Paul is stoned in Acts 14:19. These signs were fulfilled.


10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.

-All of these things happened. In 2 Timothy 4:10-15, Demas and Alexander were apostates. They betrayed and did evil unto Paul. Demas' love waxed cold for Paul and the Church, and he chose to love the present world. In
2 Peter 2:1 and 1 John 4:1, followers are warned that false prophets were in the world. These signs were fulfilled.


13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

-Jesus instructs his disciples to "endure unto the end". Not "endure until you die." If they headed Jesus' warnings, they would have a better chance at being saved from the destruction that was about to come. It is written in Luke 21:22, For THESE be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. Read Luke 21:20-28 for the context. Other references are: Heb. 3:6, 14 and Rev. 2:25,26. The "shall be saved" is NOT the 'accept Jesus and instantly have salvation' message pastors exclaim on Sunday moring. But rather being saved from the destruction that was due to take place upon the Earth in "these days of vengeance" immediately before the Second Coming. (see 24:29)


14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

-According to scripture, the gospel was preached to all the world before Jesus' generation perished! Paul exclaims this in Romans 10:18, But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world. Again in Romans 16:25-26, ...made known to all nations for the obedience of faith... Also see Colossians 1:5-6, 23. The first part was fulfilled. "Then shall the end come" was not.


15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand)

-The Good News calls it "The Awful Horror." More importantly, the "holy place" was destroyed in 70 A.D.!
This points to a 1st Century era. Christians commonly teach that another temple will be constucted to replace it. One little problem though: People can not randomly build a temple and call it "holy." The "holy place" is gone for good. This event in verse 15 has already happened.


16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

-Jesus is souding a warning alarm. Women "with child" will have a tough time protecting themselves from the destruction which is about to befall Jerusalem. For "then", following this destruction, shall be great tribulation.


22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

-The Good News, verse 22, But God has already reduced the number of days; had he not done so, nobody would survive. For the sake of his chosen people, however, God will reduce the days. God himself has shortened the days, otherwise none would survive the awful battle and the tribulation. Many antichrists came, 1 John 2:18, Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time. John knew that the signs had been fulfilled, and he warned "little children" that it was the "last time". Not old timers who could die anytime, but little children that would live and see the return of Jesus. False prophets were seen in 1 John 4:1. These signs were fulfilled.


25 Behold, I have told you before.

-The Good News, verse 25, Listen! I have told you this ahead of time. Jesus would not ask these disciples to LISTEN and BEHOLD all these future disasters to remember what he has been warning them throughout the entire chapter. This warning was told to them, for them, explaining events to take place within their present lives. No future generations are in view here.


26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

-Jesus' coming was to be visible, "as the lightning" comes and shines from both the east and west.


28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

-The signs and events have already happened in the 1st century, these remaining events were to follow "IMMEDIATELY." There is an unbreakable succession of events.


30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

-"Immediately…Then" = First Century. There is no room for random gaps of thousands of years to be inserted.


31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

-Here is another problem for Preterists. Millions of angels go to the four corners of the earth and gather God's chosen people with the sound of a great trumpet, all unnoticed.

32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

-Jesus directly tells his Apostles "when ye shall see all these things". Jesus does not say, "if ye see..." Likewise, notice the reference to knowing summer is near if spring is already in bloom. Here is another indication of the shortness in his return. It is a parable, seeing the blossoming branch = seeing the signs and events, knowing that summer is nigh = knowing that Jesus was near, even at the doors. Individuals have tryed to distort this clear meaning into something related to Israel in 1948. Jesus even caps off the statement by reminding the disciples how near he really was. He was at their door. Not my door, or Bob's door. Not at our doors now, not at our children's in 100 years, not at our descendant's centuries from now.

34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

::The Greek
genea Noun Feminine
the whole multitude of men living at the same time
an age (i.e. the time ordinarily occupied be each successive generation), a space of 30 - 33 years
Easton's Bible Dictionary - Generation - Matt 24:34, "This generation" = the persons then living contemporary with Christ.


::Other Versions
New English Bible: "I tell you this: the present generation will live to see it all."

Today's English Version: "Remember this! All these things will happen before the people now living have all died."

Moffatt's Translation: "I tell you truly, the present generation will not pass away, till all this happens."

Weymouth's Translation: "I tell you in solemn truth that the present generation will certainly not pass away until all this has taken place."

These translations make it quite clear. The meaning of the word was that of the "present" generation in the time of Christ; not to a future generation thousands of years away.


::Literal and Clear Interpretation
The literal and obvious reading is that Jesus promised to return within his generation. When written out, his generation = this generation = the present generation = the people living contemporary with Christ.


::Parallel Passages
Mark 13 Good News, 28 "Let the fig tree teach you a lesson. When its branches become green and tender and it starts putting out leaves, you know that summer is near. 29 In the same way, when you see these things happening, you will know that the time is near, ready to begin. 30 Remember that all these things will happen before the people now living have all died.

Luke 21 Good News, 31 In the same way, when you see these things happening, you will know that the Kingdom of God is about to come. 32 "Remember that all these things will take place before the people now living have all died.

The fig tree was to teach a lesson, not predict Israel becoming a nation in 1948. In context, the chapters speak of destruction, not restoration. "This generation" of "the people now living" was to witness Jesus' return.


::Other Appearances of genea
Every time "this generation" is mentioned in the New Testament, it is always spoken by Jesus.
See Mat.11:16; 12:41-42, Mark 8:12, Luke 7:31; 11:30-32,50,51; 17:25

In each and every verse, it refers to the generation that was alive during Jesus' time. Other verses Jesus used "generation" in is Mat.12:39,45; 16:4; 17:17, Mark 8:38; 9:19, Luke 1:48,50; 9:41; 11:29; 16:8.

These all refer to an age of 30-40 years, and never as an age of 1000's of years.

Here are all other uses of the word "generation" (genea) Mat.1:17, Acts 2:40; 8:33; 13:36; 14:16 (times); 15:21 (time), Eph.3:5,21 (Ages…not age. This doesn't conflict with many "generations"), Phil.2:15 (nation), Col.1:26 (generations), and Heb.3:10. In context, its clear what the word "generation" means in these passages.


::The Understanding of the Apostles
The view of the Apostles is central to this debate. They had no trouble understading and accepting the promise of Jesus.

What did the disciples preach about the Second Coming?

Read Romans 13:11-12 NLT (http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?new=1&word=rom+13%3A11-12&section=2&version=nlt&language=en)

Paul is urging the early Roman Christians to realize how ‘late’ it is, and that ‘time is running out’. The day of Jesus’ return will ‘soon be here’. “Another reason for RIGHT living…� The End was so close that Paul argued that the Romans should live RIGHTLY. It can only be said that time was NOT running out, NOR was the day at hand.


Read 1 Corinthians 15:51-52 NLT (http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=1+corinthians+15%3A51-52&section=2&version=nlt&new=1&oq=1+corinthinas+15%3A51-52)

Paul is writing to the church in Corinth. This message was intended directly for them and it states that not all of them will die, but will be changed. Of course, they all died many years ago without being changed or experiencing the last trump. Paul says “We shall not sleep�. The ‘We’ includes Paul. It says, "at the last trump." Not, "after we die."


Read 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 NLT (http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=1+thess+4%3A15-17&section=2&version=nlt&new=1&oq=&NavBook=1co&NavGo=15&NavCurrentChapter=15)

Paul is writing to the church of Thessalonica in this ancient letter and he makes it perfectly clear he is telling them DIRECTLY from the Lord. Saying, “We who are still living when the Lord returns...� Somewhat strange, being that the Lord hasn’t returned and all those who were addressed DIRECTLY by God through Paul have been deceased for quite sometime. The Thessalonians were directly addressed, not Christians living 200 nor 2000 years later. “We who are still alive and remain…� were supposed to be caught up in the clouds. Even my Defender’s Study Bible confesses in the concordance that Paul errantly believed and taught the early return of Christ to the Thessalonians.


Read James 5:7-9 NLT (http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=james+5%3A7-9&section=2&version=nlt&new=1&oq=&NavBook=1th&NavGo=4&NavCurrentChapter=4)

James was thought to have been an acknowledged leader of the Jerusalem church. James tells his followers, “brother and sisters�, that ‘the judge is standing at the door’. They were told to “..be patient as you wait for the Lord’s return.� They were not told to “..be patient as you wait for your death to approach..� Why should they be patiently waiting for the Lord’s return? “Don’t grumble, for look, he is at the door�. How long does this door take to open?


1 Peter 4:7 NLT
The end of the world is coming soon. Therefore, be earnest and disciplined in your prayers.

It is assumed Simon Peter wrote the books of 1 and 2 Peter and that they were intended to spread the gospel message to what is now considered Turkey. In his message, he speaks of ‘the end of all things’ and ‘the end of the world’ coming soon. In the KJV, it says “be sober and watch unto prayer�. WATCH for what!? Their inevitable deaths, or the end of all things (& Jesus’ coming) ? The context of the verse plainly says “the end of the world�.


Read 1 John 2:18 NLT (http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=1+john+2%3A18&section=2&version=nlt&new=1&oq=&NavBook=jas&NavGo=5&NavCurrentChapter=5)

Here is a very interesting verse. John seems to dig an even deeper hole for the New Testament. The claim is made to the little children that “it is the last time�. Even that ‘antichrists are now here among us’! Also, “we know that the end of the world has come.� He points his statement at the little children, and says that it is the last time (or last hour).


And finally, Romans 13:11-12 commands that now is the time for ‘right living’, because ‘it is late’, and ‘time is running out’. Interesting, being Revelation 22:10-12 says the exact opposite, 10-12, ...for the time is near. Let the one who is doing wrong continue to do wrong; the one who is vile, continue to be vile; the one who is good, continue to do good; and the one who is holy, continue in holiness. See, I am coming soon, and my reward is with me, to repay all according to their deeds.�

One passage says that the end is near, CHANGE your behavior and live RIGHTLY. The latter in Revelation says that he was coming soon, so soon that those doing wrong should CONTINUE to do wrong. According to this author, the END is so close that they could now disregard the previous command in Romans to change their ways, and now must accept the fact that it’s SO late, they should NOT even attempt to change their ways.


Romans 16:19-20 NLT
19 ...20 The God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet...

Paul tells the Romans that the God of peace will soon crush Satan under their feet.


These are just some of the many passages that show the disciples listening to Jesus, understanding his message, and proclaiming it to the early churches.


::Other Coming Promises of Jesus
1. What Jesus meant by all those things happening in that generation, including the coming of Christ. In Matthew 16:27-28, Mark 8:38 - 9:1, and Luke 9:26-27, he promises to return before they die.

2. He also told His disciples in Matthew 10:23 KJV, "But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.

3. He tells the high priest that he will see him coming back in the clouds. Matt. 26:64, Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven. (see also Mark 14:62)

4. Basic Predictions in Revelation
1:1 - "...things which must shortly take place"
2:16 - "Repent, or else I will come to you quickly"
3:11 - "Behold, I come quickly!"
22:6 - "...things which must shortly take place."
22:7 - "Behold, I am coming quickly!"
22:12 - "Behold, I am coming quickly."
22:20 - "Surely I am coming quickly."

5. Revelation Predictions with mello
1:19 - "Write ... the things that are about to take place."
3:10 - "... the hour of trial ... is about to come upon the whole world."
The word mello means about to and on the point of. This word is used in the NT to reinforce something that was about to happen. ie - the spinning top is about to stop moving

6. Read Luke 21:35 & 36 KJV (http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=luke+21%3A35-36&section=2&version=kjv&new=1&oq=&NavBook=1jo&NavGo=2&NavCurrentChapter=2)
They were to escape the destruction of the temple and live to see Christ return. Then they would stand before the Son of Man.

7. Luke 21:28, And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
The disciples are told to look up! Hmmm...I wonder what for?

Jesus predicted more than once that he would come within his generation, not a far future one.


::The Context of the Passage
In Luke 17:24-25, We see what generation Christ suffered many things from. We also see what generation rejected him. Clearly, He is speaking of His contemporaries. Notice how some of the translations deal with this verse.
Verse 34 is NOT alone; it is the climax of the last several verses. The entire chapter and all the time references come together and form the prediction that Jesus would return within "this generation". The context allows for NO other interpretation. Matthew 24:34 begins with, "Verily I say unto you.." He wanted to make it clear that no one could misunderstand or misinterpret his words. In verse 35, he even says that his words will outlast the universe! He certainly considered this to be an important statement. His disciples heard, understood, and believed.


::Conclusion
It is UNDISPUTABLE! Jesus said what he meant and meant what he said. The Greek shows this, other versions show this, literal and clear interpretation shows this, reading of parallel passages shows this, studying of other appearances of genea shows this, the Apostles show this in their direct letters to the early churches, the other promises made by Jesus show this, and the context of the verse in Matthew 24 shows this. Jesus promised to return within his generation, not a far future on. There is NO other conclusion!


CASE CLOSED



36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

-Jesus admits that he has not yet been told by his father the exact time. He never gave the exact year, month, day, hour, minute, or second - so what? Jesus cleary gave time limits, figuratively speaking, an "expiration date". Also, if Jesus had no "approximate" idea of when he would return, he should have and would have kept his mouth shut! But this was not the case. Even if he did give an exact time, believers today would probably distort the meaning of the exact time passage(s), too. The exact time is irrelevant. Jesus failed to come back when promised.


37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

-Noah's Flood was within Noah's generation. They lived a little longer back then, according to the Bible, but it still occcured within Noah's liftime. The flood that "Noah" warned everyone about what was due within "Noah's" generation, not in a far future generation thousands of years later. Jesus directly promised his Apostles that, "as the days of Noe were", "so shall also the coming of the Son of man be." Therefore, the Second Coming was due within their lifetime as it was with Noah. Note: "Noe" is equivalent to Noah.


40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.

-The Apostles were to watch closely, for they knew not what hour their Lord (Jesus) would come for them. If the thief who was going to rob the house was NOT due to come centuries after both house and owner had perished, Jesus' direct advice to to the "goodman of the house" (the Apostles) to "watch" is uselesss and meaningless jargon. Thus, Jesus was not passing them worthless speach, but was warning them of his coming.

44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

-The Good News Tranlation says, So then, you also must always be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you are not expecting him. The Apostles were to be READY. This urgent statement is sensless if Jesus was not to return within his generation. It has been nearly 2,000 years since Jesus sounded the alarm warning his Apostles (not you or me) about his Second Coming. Looking back, Jesus working up his apostles about his early return makes no sense at all, unless he aniticipated returning within their lifetimes. It is also important to note that Jesus is specifically limiting his statement to the Apostles, and urging them to be ready. If the coming wasn't to happen for thousands of years, he would not be warning THEM. The context of this entire chapter shows that "THEM" were a part "THIS GENERATION."

45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?
46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
47 Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.
48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;

-"Who is the loyal and intelligent servant"? Specifically, Peter was, as recorded earlier in Matthew 16:18,19. Jesus, in this story, tells of a departing master (Jesus) who puts a servant (Peter) in charge of the household (the Church) until his return (within Peters lifetime). Jesus put Peter in charge of governing the church and spreading the gospel quickly before his return. Therefore Jesus, like the master in the parable, expected to be back within Peter's lifetime. In verse 48, Jesus condemns as an "evil servant" he who says "My lord delayeth his coming". Yet, saying anything else shows ignorance of the passages related to the Coming. He has taken 2,000 years. It has been a LONG time! Certainly longer than he and his apostles preached.


49-51

-THE END of Matthew chapter 24.



::The Package Deal
All these other events happened when predicted, what about the Coming?

For example, in Luke 21, verses 1-38 are part of an entire chapter. A package deal - if you will. All these events were to happen with no room for delay: the destruction of Jerusalem, earthquakes, famines, severe persecution, other mentioned signs and events, then to be immediately followed by the return of Jesus within his generation.

Matthew is even more clear:
Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Immediately, (NO GAP OF THOUSANDS OF YEARS) Then shall appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven, and they shall see the Son of Man coming in the clouds.

It could NOT be more clear.



This commentary sets the stage. In the coming rounds, I will defend my position and attempt to more closely look at other passages related to the Coming. I am anticipating what defense(s) Jason has to bring forth. I must confess that to this day, I have never heard an honest or plausible defense.

Sincerely,
Jon

[Jason Gastrich]

Dear IIDB, Readers, and Jon,

Thanks to IIDB for hosting this debate and thanks for the readers who are following. I’m happy to debate Jon on this issue. I’ll be answering his assertions and questions in a point by point manner.

First, it is important to note that Jesus did promise to return. However, he did not promise to return within the lifetime of His followers. I’ll show this in my rebuttals and in my closing statement.

As you read our debate, keep in mind the resolution. It is: Jesus Christ promised to return before his generation passed away, not a future generation. Jon is taking the affirmative and I am taking the negative position. When you read Jon’s arguments, ask yourself if they are truly referring to the second coming or not and ask yourself if they are truly good evidence of his case. He tries to apply some verses about various things to the second coming when they don’t mention it or imply it. He has also used a few verses that have little to do with the debate resolution.

Next, it will be good to familiarize yourself with a little bit of Greek. Jon makes a couple of errors regarding word choices that can be understood better by looking at the Greek. If you need to have a Bible with Strong’s numbering to a Greek/Hebrew dictionary and concordance, feel free to use this one: http://bible.jcsm.org .

Now, I will begin my rebuttal to Jon’s first round post.

5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

-People pretended to be Christs within Jesus' generation. The disciples did hear of wars and rumours of wars, and the coming war that would result in the temple's destruction. These signs were fulfilled. The word "shall" is translated from the Greek word mello. It means "to be about" or "to be on the point of doing something".

I couldn’t get through Jon’s first page without reading an argument by assertion. Can you prove that the disciples heard wars and rumors of wars? You can’t just assert.

7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.

-In Matthew 28:2 and Acts 16:26, there were large earthquakes.

Were they in “divers� places? No.

Acts 11:28 shows that a great famine occurred. These signs were fulfilled. The word "sorrows" was taken from the Greek work odin. It is used in regards to intolerable anguish; "the pain of childbirth." The Good News Translation says in 24:8, All these things are like the first pains of childbirth. A 2000 year gap between the first pains of childbirth and the result of childbirth is a long time. It was DUE - if you will, to happen soon.

How about pestilences? How about a nation vs. another nation and a kingdom vs. another kingdom?

9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

-The persecution was to be very great, which is shown in scripture. In Acts 5:18, the apostles are put in prison. Later in Acts 5:40, they are flogged and ordered to never again speak in the name of Jesus. Paul is stoned in Acts 14:19. These signs were fulfilled.

How could they be “hated by all nations�? Can you prove this? Can you prove that they were hated by the Chinese?

13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

-Jesus instructs his disciples to "endure unto the end". Not "endure until you die."

He just told them that some would die! See verse 9. Therefore, in this very same context, the “end� must be able to refer to death.

14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

-According to scripture, the gospel was preached to all the world before Jesus' generation perished! Paul exclaims this in Romans 10:18, But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world. Again in Romans 16:25-26, ...made known to all nations for the obedience of faith... Also see Colossians 1:5-6, 23. The first part was fulfilled. "Then shall the end come" was not.

Matthew 23:14 uses the Greek words “oykoumene� (world) and “ethnos� (nations). Oykoumene is referring to the entire globe. Ethnos is referring to the entire world.

Romans 10:18 uses the word “ghay� meaning a region when referring to the “earth.�

Romans 16:26 actually reads, “but now made manifest, and by the prophetic Scriptures made known to all nations, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, for obedience to the faith.� The Greek words for “made known� indicate a declaration and a revelation. They don’t refer to every person literally being told.

In conclusion, you are wrong about the scriptures regarding the world and the nations being told the gospel.

15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand)

-The Good News calls it "The Awful Horror." More importantly, the "holy place" was destroyed in 70 A.D.!
This points to a 1st Century era. Christians commonly teach that another temple will be constucted to replace it. One little problem though: People can not randomly build a temple and call it "holy." The "holy place" is gone for good. This event in verse 15 has already happened.

How is the “holy place gone for good�? This is just another argument by assertion. Yes, the temple was destroyed, but it will be rebuilt. There are already plans by groups such as the Temple Mount Faithful to restore the temple and the sacrifices. The garments and tools have been created, the heifers have been found, etc. There is no evidence or rational reason to say that the holy place cannot exist again. I’d like to see the reaction you’d get from a Jew if you said this to them.

22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

-The Good News, verse 22, But God has already reduced the number of days; had he not done so, nobody would survive. For the sake of his chosen people, however, God will reduce the days. God himself has shortened the days, otherwise none would survive the awful battle and the tribulation. Many antichrists came, 1 John 2:18, Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time. John knew that the signs had been fulfilled, and he warned "little children" that it was the "last time". Not old timers who could die anytime, but little children that would live and see the return of Jesus. False prophets were seen in 1 John 4:1. These signs were fulfilled.

Where were these first century signs and wonders? Do you have any evidence that these false Christs in the first century actually showed great signs and wonders and deceived the elect?

25 Behold, I have told you before.

-The Good News, verse 25, Listen! I have told you this ahead of time. Jesus would not ask these disciples to LISTEN and BEHOLD all these future disasters to remember what he has been warning them throughout the entire chapter. This warning was told to them, for them, explaining events to take place within their present lives. No future generations are in view here.

Telling someone to listen doesn’t mean that a prophecy will occur soon.

32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

-Jesus directly tells his Apostles "when ye shall see all these things". Jesus does not say, "if ye see..." Likewise, notice the reference to knowing summer is near if spring is already in bloom. Here is another indication of the shortness in his return. It is a parable, seeing the blossoming branch = seeing the signs and events, knowing that summer is nigh = knowing that Jesus was near, even at the doors. Individuals have tryed to distort this clear meaning into something related to Israel in 1948. Jesus even caps off the statement by reminding the disciples how near he really was. He was at their door. Not my door, or Bob's door. Not at our doors now, not at our children's in 100 years, not at our descendant's centuries from now.

It has already been made clear that Jesus was addressing a future generation. The list of things that had to be accomplished before His return had not been completed in the 1st century. Therefore, we know that verses 32 and 33 weren’t simply directed to His disciples.

34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

>> The Greek
genea Noun Feminine
the whole multitude of men living at the same time
an age (i.e. the time ordinarily occupied be each successive generation), a space of 30 - 33 years
Easton's Bible Dictionary - Generation - Matt 24:34, "This generation" = the persons then living contemporary with Christ.

“Genea� means “age.� See http://www.jcsm.org/StudyCenter/kjvstrongs/STRGRK10.htm#S1074. Strong’s clearly tells us “an age� is a valid definition of “genea.� This verse is referring to the church age which was ushered in at Pentecost.

Is there any particular reason you turned to the New English Bible, Today’s English Bible, Moffatt’s Translation, and Weymouth’s Translation? I wouldn’t have thought twice if you used the NKJV, KJV, and NIV. Nonetheless, the Bible is inerrant, but not every translation is inerrant. Not all Bible dictionaries are perfect either.

Other Appearances of genea
Every time "this generation" is mentioned in the New Testament, it is always spoken by Jesus.

I’ve already shown you the definition of genea. How Jesus used it most of the time is irrelevant.

The Understanding of the Apostles
The view of the Apostles is central to this debate. They had no trouble understading and accepting the promise of Jesus.

What did the disciples preach about the Second Coming?

Read Romans 13:11-12 NLT (http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?new=1&word=rom+13%3A11-12&section=2&version=nlt&language=en)

Paul is urging the early Roman Christians to realize how “late� it is, and that “time is running out�. The day of Jesus� return will “soon be here�. Another reason for RIGHT living. The End was so close that Paul argued that the Romans should live RIGHTLY. It can only be said that time was NOT running out, NOR was the day at hand.

These verses don’t mention or imply the second coming of Christ. Here is what Adam Clarke’s commentary says on Romans 13:11.

“Dr. Taylor has given a judicious paraphrase of this and the following verses: “And all the duties of a virtuous and holy life we should the more carefully and zealously perform, considering the nature and shortness of the present season of life; which will convince us that it is now high time to rouse and shake off sleep, and apply with vigilance and vigor to the duties of our Christian life; for that eternal salvation, which is the object of our Christian faith and hope, and the great motive of our religion, is every day nearer to us than when we first entered into the profession of Christianity.�

Read 1 Corinthians 15:51-52 NLT (http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=1+corinthians+15%3A51-52&section=2&version=nlt&new=1&oq=1+corinthinas+15%3A51-52)

Paul is writing to the church in Corinth. This message was intended directly for them and it states that not all of them will die, but will be changed. Of course, they all died many years ago without being changed or experiencing the last trump. Paul says “We shall not sleep�. The “We� includes Paul. It says, "at the last trump." Not, "after we die."

Paul uses the word “we� several times in this passage. Therefore, he can’t be talking only to the Corinthians. This verse is referring to after death. This is why verse 52 says, “the dead will rise incorruptible.� Paul is saying that they WILL DIE, so he can’t possibly be implying that Christ would return during their lifetime.

Read 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 NLT (http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=1+thess+4%3A15-17&section=2&version=nlt&new=1&oq=&NavBook=1co&NavGo=15&NavCurrentChapter=15)

Paul is writing to the church of Thessalonica in this ancient letter and he makes it perfectly clear he is telling them DIRECTLY from the Lord. Saying, “We who are still living when the Lord returns...� Somewhat strange, being that the Lord hasn�t returned and all those who were addressed DIRECTLY by God through Paul have been deceased for quite sometime. The Thessalonians were directly addressed, not Christians living 200 nor 2000 years later. “We who are still alive and remain� were supposed to be caught up in the clouds. Even my Defender�s Study Bible confesses in the concordance that Paul errantly believed and taught the early return of Christ to the Thessalonians.�

I have a Defender’s Study Bible and it does not say this. Here is what it does say:

“It is significant to note in these relatively early years of his ministry, Paul considered it likely that he, himself, would be living when Christ returned: “We which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord,� he said.

Of course, I disagree with this commentary. However, I wanted to include it because Jon is incorrect (to put it nicely). This commentary only says that “Paul considered it likely that he would be living when Christ returned.� It “confesses� no error.

Adam Clarke’s commentary eloquently answers this question. It reads:

“We which are alive, and remain—By the pronoun we the apostle does not intend himself, and the Thessalonians to whom he was then writing; he is speaking of the genuine Christians which shall be found on earth when Christ comes to judgment. From not considering the manner in which the apostle uses this word, some have been led to suppose that he imagined that the day of judgment would take place in that generation, and while he and the then believers at Thessalonica were in life. But it is impossible that a man, under so direct an influence of the Holy Spirit, should be permitted to make such a mistake: nay, no man in the exercise of his sober reason could have formed such an opinion; there was nothing to warrant the supposition; no premises from which it could be fairly deduced; nor indeed any thing in the circumstances of the Church, nor in the constitution of the world, that could have suggested a hint of the kind. The apostle is speaking of the thing indefinitely as to the time when it shall happen, but positively as to the ORDER that shall be then observed.�

Read James 5:7-9 NLT (http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=james+5%3A7-9&section=2&version=nlt&new=1&oq=&NavBook=1th&NavGo=4&NavCurrentChapter=4)

James was thought to have been an acknowledged leader of the Jerusalem church. James tells his followers, “brother and sisters�, that “the judge is standing at the door�. They were told to “..be patient as you wait for the Lord�s return� They were not told to “..be patient as you wait for your death to approach..� Why should they be patiently waiting for the Lord�s return? “Don�t grumble, for look, he is at the door�. How long does this door take to open?

James is referring to the coming of the Lord. He is also referring to Him returning very soon. However, he is NOT referring to the Second Coming of Jesus Christ.

James is telling these people how the Lord will come soon and judge the evildoers. This happened within the lifetime of these people. If you insist that this passage refers to the second coming of Jesus Christ, then tell me why.

1 Peter 4:7 NLT
The end of the world is coming soon. Therefore, be earnest and disciplined in your prayers.

It is assumed Simon Peter wrote the books of 1 and 2 Peter and that they were intended to spread the gospel message to what is now considered Turkey. In his message, he speaks of “the end of all things� and “the end of the world� coming soon. In the KJV, it says “be sober and watch unto prayer�. WATCH for what!? Their inevitable deaths, or the end of all things (& Jesus� coming) ? The context of the verse plainly says “the end of the world�.

Read 1 John 2:18 NLT (http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=1+john+2%3A18&section=2&version=nlt&new=1&oq=&NavBook=jas&NavGo=5&NavCurrentChapter=5)

Here is a very interesting verse. John seems to dig an even deeper hole for the New Testament. The claim is made to the little children that “it is the last time�. Even that “antichrists are now here among us�! Also, “know that the end of the world has come.� He points his statement at the little children, and says that it is the last time (or last hour).

John isn’t saying that the second coming will occur during their lifetime. The Greek word used for “hour� or “time� is “hora.� It is used many times in the New Testament. See how it is used in Matthew 24.

Matthew 24:34-36 reads, “Assuredly, I say to you, this generation (the church age) will by no means pass away till all these things take place. 35Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away. 36But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, but My Father only.�

John is saying that they are in the last age. This correlates with Matthew. They were in the final age called the church age. We are still in that age, today. They had already been through the time or age of the Patriarchs, the age of the Prophets, and they were finishing the age of the Messiah. The last age was beginning and it was called the church age.

And finally, Romans 13:11-12 commands that now is the time for “right living�, because “it is late�, and “time is running out�.

Romans 13:11 and 12 reads, “And do this, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep; for now our salvation is nearer than when we first believed. 12The night is far spent, the day is at hand. Therefore let us cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armor of light.�

Paul is referring to the end of their lives. When they died, they enjoyed their salvation and eternal life. He was telling them that they should be obedient to God because they didn’t have that many years left.

Interesting, being Revelation 22:10-12 says the exact opposite, 10-12, ...for the time is near. Let the one who is doing wrong continue to do wrong; the one who is vile, continue to be vile; the one who is good, continue to do good; and the one who is holy, continue in holiness. See, I am coming soon, and my reward is with me, to repay all according to their deeds.�

Verse 12 doesn’t use the word “soon.� It uses the word “quickly.� Christ promised to return in the twinkling of an eye.

“And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work.� This is how the KJV, ASV, and NKJV put it.

Romans 16:19-20 NLT
19 ...20 The God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet...

Paul tells the Romans that the God of peace will soon crush Satan under their feet.

This is referring to the circumstance of the recipients of this message. God was going to deliver them from their bondage, soon. However, it doesn’t mention or imply the second coming of Christ.

These are just some of the many passages that show the disciples listening to Jesus, understanding his message, and proclaiming it to the early churches.

>> Other Coming Promises of Jesus
1. What Jesus meant by all those things happening in that generation, including the coming of Christ. In Matthew 16:27-28,

Matthew 16:26-28 reads, “For what profit is it to a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul? Or what will a man give in exchange for his soul? 27For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works. 28Assuredly, I say to you, there are some standing here who shall not taste death till they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.�

Jesus doesn’t promise to return in their lives. However, the promise in 28 is interesting. It refers to John the Revelator who was taken into Heaven and given a vision of the Son of Man coming. We read about this in Revelation. There are likely a couple of other people included in this exhortation; people like Stephen and Peter because they had visions of the Son of Man coming as well.

Mark 8:38 - 9:1, and Luke 9:26-27, he promises to return before they die.

These are parallel passages to the one in Matthew 16 that I just explained.

2. He also told His disciples in Matthew 10:23 KJV, "But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.

This is Jesus’ command to His disciples as He was in His earthly ministry. It was referring to their evangelistic mission and how they could visit all of the cities of Israel before His resurrection. This is when He came. It isn’t referring to the “second coming of Christ.�

This was a very pertinent warning. After Christ’s crucifixion, the disciples needed to keep believing, stand strong, and keep preaching. This was Christ’s exhortation to them.

3. He tells the high priest that he will see him coming back in the clouds. Matt. 26:64, Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven. (see also Mark 14:62)

If they will see Jesus sitting on the right hand of God, then how can you say this refers to a prophecy regarding second coming of Christ?

4. Basic Predictions in Revelation
1:1 - "...things which must shortly take place"
2:16 - "Repent, or else I will come to you quickly"
3:11 - "Behold, I come quickly!"
22:6 - "...things which must shortly take place."
22:7 - "Behold, I am coming quickly!"
22:12 - "Behold, I am coming quickly."
22:20 - "Surely I am coming quickly."

Yes, Jesus’ return will be very quick. However, it won’t be in the 1st century A.D. The word “shortly� is also translated “quickly.�

5. Revelation Predictions with mello
1:19 - "Write ... the things that are about to take place."
3:10 - "... the hour of trial ... is about to come upon the whole world."
The word mello means about to and on the point of. This word is used in the NT to reinforce something that was about to happen. ie - the spinning top is about to stop moving

You haven’t given any evidence that either of those verses refer to the second coming of Christ. Things will take place? Hour of trial? If you have one, you need to present your case.

6. Read Luke 21:35 & 36 KJV (http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=luke+21%3A35-36&section=2&version=kjv&new=1&oq=&NavBook=1jo&NavGo=2&NavCurrentChapter=2)
They were to escape the destruction of the temple and live to see Christ return. Then they would stand before the Son of Man.

In verse 32, Jesus specific that He is referring to this age - the church age.

7. Luke 21:28, And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
The disciples are told to look up! Hmmm...I wonder what for?

Who is Jesus speaking to? How do you know what this verse means without revealing the context? Once again, I’m being forced to make your argument for you, but I won’t.

Jesus predicted more than once that he would come within his generation, not a far future one.

>> The Context of the Passage
In Luke 17:24-25, We see what generation Christ suffered many things from. We also see what generation rejected him. Clearly, He is speaking of His contemporaries. Notice how some of the translations deal with this verse.
Verse 34 is NOT alone; it is the climax of the last several verses. The entire chapter and all the time references come together and form the prediction that Jesus would return within "this generation". The context allows for NO other interpretation. Matthew 24:34 begins with, "Verily I say unto you.." He wanted to make it clear that no one could misunderstand or misinterpret his words. In verse 35, he even says that his words will outlast the universe! He certainly considered this to be an important statement. His disciples heard, understood, and believed.

“This generation� refers to the church age that we are presently in.

37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

-Noah's Flood was within Noah's generation. They lived a little longer back then, according to the Bible, but it still occcured within Noah's liftime. The flood that "Noah" warned everyone about what was due within "Noah's" generation, not in a far future generation thousands of years later. Jesus directly promised his Apostles that, "as the days of Noe were", "so shall also the coming of the Son of man be." Therefore, the Second Coming was due within their lifetime as it was with Noah. Note: "Noe" is equivalent to Noah.

“And knew not until the flood came.� If these verses are directed toward Jesus’ generation, then why would He say that they would “know not�? He’s telling them! They’re obviously directed toward the future when some people would “know not� His promised return.

40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.

-The Apostles were to watch closely, for they knew not what hour their Lord (Jesus) would come for them. If the thief who was going to rob the house was NOT due to come centuries after both house and owner had perished, Jesus' direct advice to to the "goodman of the house" (the Apostles) to "watch" is uselesss and meaningless jargon. Thus, Jesus was not passing them worthless speach, but was warning them of his coming.

Like the last verses, this passage is a great passage for my case as well. Haven’t I been telling you all along that the scriptures say Jesus will come quickly? Two will be in a field, one will be taken, and one will be left. I’d say that’s quick!

<snipped a couple of arguments that were incoherent . . . if you think otherwise, please repost them>

I encourage Jon to do a couple of things.

1. Use spell check
2. Take and understand verses in context - not simply a phrase here or there
3. Explain why your cited verses cannot refer to a future age
4. Study and consider the original language (New Testament Greek)
5. Consult some scholarly articles on this subject
6. Keep in mind the resolution of the debate: “Jesus Christ promised to return before his generation passed away, not a future generation.�

Jon has a number of problems with his case. However, if he fails to follow the suggestions above, he’ll surely lose the debate. He has an uphill battle and has offered us no more than a running, opinionated commentary from his limited perspective.

Sincerely,
Jason Gastrich
Jesus Christ Saves Ministries

[Jon Promnitz]

Hello everyone,

I hope you all have endured thus far reading all of my and Jason's arguments. If you are a Christian, I know that it may seem tempting just to read Jason's posts. But I would encourage you to read this post as well.

This is my first online debate, so I am learning as I go what formats do and don't most effectively get the message across. I will take a very different approach in this post. I hope everyone enjoys it.


Jon makes a couple of errors regarding word choices that can be understood better by looking at the Greek.
We shall see Jason. Notice how he claims this first, instead of critiquing my post and then saying, "Look back, see he made mistakes...." Immediately, Jason wants the believers that are reading to think I made crucial errors, causing them to doubt and skip a fair reading of my posts.


The list of things that had to be accomplished before His return had not been completed in the 1st century.
Since Jason doesn't believe the signs were fulfilled within the 1st century, he argues the generation referred to must be a future one. Therefore, the sole intent of this Round 2 post will be to show the signs did occur within the 1st century.

Opening Round 2
I. Signs
Prove that all the signs in Matthew 24 were fulfilled within the 1st century.

Later Rounds
II. Matt. 24:34 & 35
III. A contradiction?
IV. Preterists vs. Futurists



I. Signs

Matt. 24:6
And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

I couldn’t get through Jon’s first page without reading an argument by assertion. Can you prove that the disciples heard wars and rumors of wars?

YES

1) First, notice the Greek word mello (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=3195&version=kjv). If they didn't hear of wars very shortly, Jesus made a false prediction. Jesus said they were "about to" and were "on the point of" hearing of wars. Are you saying Jesus lied?
2) In your words Jason, "We can't expect the Bible to record every thing that has happened or was said." To keep Jesus' prediction from being false, I suggest you realize they must have heard from others of coming war before Jerusalem was attacked. The city was destroyed in 70 A.D. Would you have us believe that no one mentioned or feared this coming war. Were the apostles not apart of the information circles at the time.
3) Read it in context. Later in 34, Jesus even gives them many tips to avoid the war. Surely the disciples warned others of the soon to come destruction (and relayed Jesus advice to avoid becoming a casualty), and rumours of wars were born instantly. It would have been "the talk of the town!" No doubt, numerous doomsayers were spreading true and false information about this war and others on a regular basis. Unless the disciples lived in a box, they most likely heard of wars and rumours of wars on a daily basis.
4) Perhaps you forget to read verses 1-3. They heard it from Jesus right away. Jesus was the first to fulfill his very prediction by telling them of the coming war.
Thanks to David B. Curtis for 5 & 6:
5) Josephus said, in Antiquities 18:5:3, that Bardanes, and after him Volageses, declared war against Aretas, King of Arabia. But the death of Tiberius prevented war (rumours of war). There were wars in the tributaries of Rome and all over Palestine, Galilee, and Samaria in AD 66, before the destruction of Jerusalem.
6) Among the Jews, the times became turbulent. In Seleucia, 50,000 Jews were killed. There was an uprising against them in Alexandria. In a battle between the Jews and Syrians in Caesarea, 20,000 were killed. During these times, Caligula ordered his statue placed in the temple at Jerusalem. The Jews refused to do this and lived in constant fear that the Emperor's armies would be sent into Palestine. This fear became so real that some of them did not even bother to till their fields.
7) Ten of thousands were killed and many changed their lifestyle and schedules (didn't till fields) because of fear. Wars and rumours of wars sparked this fear.


24:7
For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
Were they in “divers� places? No. How about pestilences? How about a nation vs. another nation and a kingdom vs. another kingdom?

INCORRECT, YES

David B. Curtis needs to get the credit for this historical reseach (1-4):
1) Famines: Historians record 30,000 deaths in Rome alone. This famine is mentioned by Tacitus, Suetonius, and Eusebius, and is said to have been severe in Jerusalem. Josephus says that many people perished for want of food. Judea was especially hard hit by famine and the disciples sent aid to them (Acts 11:27-29). Tacitus speaks of a "failure in the crops, and a famine consequent thereupon." Eusebius also mentions famines during this time in Rome, Judea, and Greece. The Bible records famines in Acts 11:27-29, which occurred during the reign of Claudius in 41-54 AD.
2) Pestilences: Famine and pestilence go hand in hand. Pestilence is often caused by famine. Suetonius wrote of "pestilence" at Rome in the days of Nero which was so severe that "within the space of one autumn there died no less than 30,000 persons." Josephus records that pestilences raged in Babylonia in A. D. 40. Tacitus tells of pestilences in Italy in A. D. 65. Yes, there were pestilences in the life time of the disciples in those years leading up to the destruction of Jerusalem.
3) Nation vs. Nation (K vs. K): The word "nation" here is the Greek word ethnos, which means, a race. Also, Jesus was speaking to the disciples, this had to have relevance to them! Did they see nation rising against nation? Yes! Josephus says, "At Caesarea in AD 59 the Jews and Syrians contended about the right to the city, and twenty thousand Jews were slain." At Scythopolis, over 13,000 Jews were killed. Thousands were killed in other places, and at Alexandria 50,000 were killed. At Damascus, 10,000 were killed in an hour's time. Jesus is speaking about the conflicts between Gentiles and Jews, which began to take place shortly after this time, and continued to the beginning of the great Jewish war. For some time previously, Gentiles and Jews had been living for the most part, in peace together, but this period was distinguished by wars.
4) Earthquakes: Did the disciple experience earthquakes in their life time? Yes, they did. Tacitus mentions earthquakes at Rome. He wrote, "Frequent earthquakes occurred, by which many houses were thrown down," and "twelve populous cities of Asia fell in ruins from an earthquake." Seneca, writing in the year 58 A. D., said, "How often have cities of Asia and Achaea fallen with one fatal shock! How many cities have been swallowed up in Syria! How many in Macedonia! How often has Cyprus been wasted by this calamity! How often has Paphos become a ruin! News has often been brought us of the demolition of whole cities at once." In 60 A.D., Hierapous, Colosse, and Laodicea were overthrown from earthquakes. There were earthquakes in Crete, Apamea, Smyrna, Miletus, Chios, Samos, and Judea. Earthquakes in diverse places! History records earthquakes in Crete 46AD, Rome 51AD, Apamaia 53AD, Laodicea 60AD, and Campania 62AD. The Bible records earthquakes in divers places after Jesus' prediction and before 70AD (Mat.27:51; 28:2, Acts 16:26).
5) Divers: means diverse and different. All of these events, based on the Bible and history, occured within Jesus' generation in MANY divers places.


24:9
Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
How could they be “hated by all nations�? Can you prove this? Can you prove that they were hated by the Chinese?

EASILY, YES

A reading of parallel passage Mark 13 (http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=Mark+13&section=0&version=kjv&new=1&oq=&NavBook=mt&NavGo=24&NavCurrentChapter=24) shows that the disciples Jesus was speaking with were only Peter, James, John, and Andrew. All the apostles and followers of Jesus didn't have to die. I will address this later.
1) This is really a silly question. First off, Jesus predicted it. Secondly, the scripture shows that they were hated. Thirdly, history shows that they were hated. You know this.
2) Remember Jason, the Bible can't be expected to record every single event. With such severe persecutation from Jews and Romans, even the hate of Chinese or other peoples would have been the least of their worries. It's not surprising the New Testament doesn't come right out and list off every specific nation that hated them. They didn't have to, they knew they were hated! Jesus said they would be.
3) As for the Chinese, this is as far back as I could find, click here (http://www.campusprogram.com/reference/en/wikipedia/p/pe/persecution_of_christians.html). They were hated after a few centuries, what makes you think they were loved before? Jesus promised they would be hated among all nations (notice he is talking directly to Peter, James, John, and Andrew)! He looked them in the eyes and told them, YOU will be hated among all nations for my names sake. You're ignoring the scripture when it's convenient for you. Ironically, you then create another problem. It's Jason vs. Jesus, and Jason believes they weren't hated among all nations.
YOU=four listening apostles
If the YOU (the four) weren't hated among all nations, Jesus made a false prophecy. Jesus should and would have said, "my followers will be hated for generations to come" or something similiar. He wouldn't have looked at them and said YOU! It did apply to the FOUR, and on a more general level, of course it applied to all the other early followers. Why wouldn't it, they were persecuted before and after he spoke those words.
4) Only parts of the verse that fit your theology are noticed. "Then shall they deliver YOU.." (scripture shows us that the YOU was specifically the four listening apostles, and that they were afflicted, killed, and hated for Jesus' name's sake).
5) The YOU in the beginning of the verse refers to all christ's followers, but was directly targeted at that the four listening apostles. Jason would have us believe that even though they were delivered, afflicted, killed, and hated for Jesus' name, they weren't hated among all nations, also.
Let's look at it:
9 Then shall they deliver (Jason agrees this happened) you up to be afflicted (Jason agrees this happend), and shall kill you (Jason agrees this happened): and ye shall be hated of all nations (Jason would like us to believe that these two words, amongst all these that were fulfilled, did NOT happen) for my name's sake (Jason agrees this happened).
Jason's theological twist: They were delivered, they were afflicted, they were killed, they were hated <snip>among all nations<snip> for my name's sake. Jason's new reading: They were delivered, they were afflicted, they were killed, they were hated for my name's sake.
He is literally "cutting" a piece of scripture out because he doesn't want to except the fact that it was fulfilled within Jesus' generation. Jason says I need to provide evidence that every single nation hated them back then. I can tell him that from all the records I have seen and from the Bible, everyone hated the Christians from the get-go. With a PASSION. He needs to provide evidence that nations didn't hate them. Also, I have shown that all the signs: hear of wars, famines, pestilences, earthquakes, and so forth did in fact occur before 70 AD. This needs to be factored in. Why were all these other signs undeniably fulfilled, except being hated by all nations. We need to ask why should we cut these words out?
6) Again, are we to believe that when Jesus spoke to Peter, James, John, and Andrew face to face, eye to eye, and said "YE shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake", he didn't mean that Peter, James, John, and Andrew (YE) would be hated of all nations for my name's sake. Look at the CONTEXT and ask some questions: What is the setting (time & location)? Time - Nearly 2000 years ago. Location - Ancient Jerusalem, first the temple, then upon the mount of Olives. Who was Jesus speaking with directly (& even privately)? Four Apostles - Peter, James, John, & Andrew. What context is this verse in? Throughout the ENTIRE chapter, Jesus is speaking directly to these four.

Here's a real question: How were they not hated among all nations?


24:13
But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
He just told them that some would die! See verse 9. Therefore, in this very same context, the “end� must be able to refer to death.

PARTIALLY CORRECT

This passage is not a specific "sign", but it needs to be temporarily addressed.
1) He did just tell them that SOME would die. A couple weeks ago you argued that since one passage said "he" responded and the other said "they" responded (outside of Jericho) the passages weren't contradictory since it didn't say "only he" or "only one." Likewise, this never says "all" would die. That would have been an excellent statement. We wouldn't even be having this debate if Jesus said once, "All of you will die" or "This generation shall pass before all is fulfilled" or "These ARE NOT the days of vengeace, in which all things written will be fulfilled." Anything similiar would suffice! Unfortunately, Jesus never spoke these words, but in fact, the exact opposite.

This passage has nothing to do with being a "sign", but I will most likely discuss it more thoroughly in the coming rounds along with Matt. 24:34.


14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
a) Matthew 23:14 uses the Greek words “oykoumene� (world) and “ethnos� (nations). Oykoumene is referring to the entire globe. Ethnos is referring to the entire world.

b) Romans 10:18 uses the word “ghay� meaning a region when referring to the “earth.�

c) Romans 16:26 actually reads, “but now made manifest, and by the prophetic Scriptures made known to all nations, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, for obedience to the faith.� The Greek words for “made known� indicate a declaration and a revelation. They don’t refer to every person literally being told.

d) In conclusion, you are wrong about the scriptures regarding the world and the nations being told the gospel.

THANKS FOR PROVING MY POINT

Note: The reference in Jason's post should be Matt 24:14, not 23:14. I also lettered Jason's points.
a) What are you getting at, Jason? Click here (http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=matt+24%3A14&section=0&version=str&new=1&oq=&NavBook=ro&NavGo=10&NavCurrentChapter=10) to see the verse and crosswalk. By clicking on the underlined words in the verse, you can view the Greek.
b) First off, so what? How is this significant? Also, you left out that it also uses the same word as in Matt. 24:14! Click here (http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=Romans+10%3A18&section=0&version=str&new=1&oq=&NavBook=ro&NavGo=10&NavCurrentChapter=10) to see the verse and study the Greek. You were caught in the act. Romans and Matt. contain the Greek word Oikoumene, which is tranlated into "world" in both passages.
c) Your point seems irrelevant and - well, pointless. Then you say, "They don't refer to every person being told." First, I never said it did. Jason is apparently talking and arguing with himself. David Curtis says it best:

"Remember what we saw in Matthew 24:9. Why would the apostles be hated in all nations if they had not preached the gospel in all nations? They were hated by all nations because they preached in all nations (Acts 17:6; 24:5). Paul declares that the gospel was preached to every creature under heaven (Colossians 1:5-6, 23). In Matthew 24:14, the Greek word for preached is kerusso, it is in the future tense. But in Colossians 1:23 the same word kerusso is in the past tense. Jesus said that it is to be preached and Paul says in AD 62, that it has been preached to every creature. The fact that Colossians was written in 62AD, 8 years before Jerusalem was destroyed, is proof that 70AD was the total fulfillment of this passage!

Paul said that the gospel was made known to all nations (Romans 16:25-26). Paul also said that the faith of the Romans was spoken of throughout the whole world (Rom 1:5,8). We know that Paul traveled through Asia Minor, Greece, and Crete; that he was in Italy, and probably in Spain and Gaul (Rom 15:24-28). During this time the other apostles weren't sitting around idle; all the apostles went abroad and preached the gospel to everyone (Acts 8:1-5,14,25); and there is much proof that within thirty years after this prophecy was spoken, churches were established in all these regions (Acts 9:31).

The following verses all fulfill Acts 1:8. Men from every nation heard Peter preach the gospel (Acts 2:5,9-11,14); and Peter said it was published throughout Judaea (Acts 10:37, 1 Pet.4:6). Paul says he fully preached the gospel (Romans 15:19; 16:19), and it appeared to all men (Titus 2:11.), and it was preached and believed on in the world (1 Timothy 3:16). In Romans 10:18, the word "world" is oikumene, same as Mat.24:24, and the word "earth" is ge, same as Acts 1:8. In Romans 16:25-26, the word "nations" is ethnos, same as Mark 13:10. In Colossians 1:6, the word "world" is kosmos, same as Mark 16:15. In Colossians 1:23, the word "creature" is ktisis, same as Mark 16:15. Hebrews 4:2 says the gospel was preached.

Many today say that the gospel has not been preached to all the world and Matthew 24:14 has not yet been fulfilled. The Bible says that all the nations of the world heard the gospel preached before AD 70. Who are you going to believe? To deny that Matthew 24:14 has been fulfilled is to deny the clear statements of God's Holy Word; it is to call God a liar."

d) Au contraire!


15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand)
How is the “holy place gone for good�? This is just another argument by assertion. Yes, the temple was destroyed, but it will be rebuilt. There are already plans by groups such as the Temple Mount Faithful to restore the temple and the sacrifices. The garments and tools have been created, the heifers have been found, etc. There is no evidence or rational reason to say that the holy place cannot exist again. I’d like to see the reaction you’d get from a Jew if you said this to them.

LET'S STUDY THIS ABOMINATION

1) The Greek words for "holy" is Hagios. It means: most holy thing. The "holy" place has been destroyed. Jason seems to have a dilemma if this event is meant for the future, it must be reconstructed so this event can 'happen.' What makes it truly "holy." Perhaps next week, a Jew (average or high rabbi) decides to construct a 10feet x 10ft x 10ft building on (or near) the former temple's location, decorates it with gold, puts some of these recovered and restored items in it, and blesses it (or whatever). Can we really call it "holy."
2) Here is the best solution: The event already happened, and this view is supported by scripture. A question comes to mind: What was the "Abomination of Desolation?"
Excerpt from David Curtis' article;
Mark says, "standing where it ought not," meaning the same thing. But Luke really clears it up for us.

Luke 21:20 (NKJV) "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near."
By reading the surrounding verses, you cannot deny that this is a parallel account to Matthew's Olivet Discourse. Parallel accounts cannot have a different meaning. By combining Luke's statement with secular history, it is clear that Cestius Gallus and his Roman army were the abomination of desolation. It was fulfilled in A.D.66 when the Romans surrounded the city of Jerusalem.

Chrysostom wrote: "For this it seems to me that the abomination of desolation means the army by which the holy city of Jerusalem was made desolate." (The Ante-Nicene Fathers)

Augustine wrote: (379) "Luke to show that the abomination spoken of by Daniel will take place when Jerusalem is captured, recalls these words of the Lord in the same context: When you shall see Jerusalem compassed about with an army, then know that the desolation thereof is at hand (xxi. 20). For Luke very clearly bears witness that the prophecy of Daniel was fulfilled when Jerusalem was overthrown." (vol. 6, p. 170)


24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
Where were these first century signs and wonders? Do you have any evidence that these false Christs in the first century actually showed great signs and wonders and deceived the elect?

YES

1) Many antichrists came, 1 John 2:18, Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time. John knew that the signs had been fulfilled, and he warned "little children" that it was the "last time". Not old timers who could die anytime, but little children that would live and see the coming of Jesus. False prophets were seen in 1 John 4:1. I don't expect the Bible (fact or fiction) to record data about every false prophet.
2) David Curtis has answered this issue:

"We learn from Josephus that many such impostors did arise about that time and promised deliverance from God, being persuaded by the tyrants or governors to prevent the people and soldiers from deserting to the Romans ; and the worse the Jews situation, the more open they would be to listen to these deceptions, and the more ready to follow the deceivers. Hegesippus, too, in Eusebius mentions the coming of false Christ's and false prophets about the same time.

These false Christ's and prophets were so convincing that if it were possible, they would have even deceived the elect. Dositheus was reputed to work wonders, according to Origen : Barchoebebas too, who Jerome saith pretended to vomit flames.

Matthew 24:25 "See, I have told you beforehand."
Christ had warned them about the coming of these false Christ's and false prophets.

Matthew 24:26 "Therefore if they say to you, 'Look, He is in the desert!' do not go out; or 'Look, He is in the inner rooms!' do not believe it."
Several of the false Christ's and false prophets led their followers "into the desert." Josephus, in his Antiquities says, "Many impostors and cheats persuaded the people to follow them into the desert, where they promised to show manifest wonders and signs done by the providence of God; and many being persuaded suffered the punishment of their folly; for Felix brought them back, and chastised them.

Luke 21:8 (NKJV) "And He said: Take heed that you not be deceived. For many will come in My name, saying, 'I am He,' and, 'The time has drawn near.' Therefore do not go after them."

Luke adds the phrase "the time has drawn near." Jesus was not talking about something that would take place hundreds or thousands of years later! Jesus was warning his disciples about something that was drawing very near in their time! Did such false Messiahs arise and deceive many in those years before the destruction of Jerusalem? Yes! We have a biblical and historical record of many such false Messiahs.

Acts 5:36-37: According to Josephus, the Jewish historian, twelve years after our Lord's death, Theudas persuaded a great multitude to follow him to the river Jordan which he claimed would divide for their passage. "The land," says Josephus, "was overrun with magicians, seducers, and impostors, who drew the people after them in multitudes into solitude and deserts, to see the signs and miracles which they promised to show by the power of God." At the time of Felix (who is mentioned in Acts 23-25), the country of the Jews was filled with impostors who Felix had put to death every day; a statement which indicates their great number in those days! An Egyptian who "pretended to be a prophet" gathered 30,000 men, claiming that he would show "how, at his command, the walls of Jerusalem would fall down." Origen mentions a certain wonder-worker, Dositheus, who claimed he was the Christ foretold by Moses.

We see another of these false Christ's in Acts 8:9-11. Jesus said "take heed that no man deceive you," yet these Samaritans "all gave heed" to Simon because of his signs and wonders, from the least to the greatest, thus fulfilling Christ's words, "and shall deceive many". According to Irenaeus, Simon claimed to be the Son of God and creator of angels. Jerome says that he claimed to be the Word of God, the Almighty. Justin relates that he went to Rome and was acclaimed as a god by his magical powers."

3) This also reminds me of an interesting verse, 1 Cor 11:4 (http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=1co+11:4&version=str&st=1&sd=1&new=1&showtools=1). I've seen many men praying, but never any prophesying. Where are these present day prophets? I see NO signs or wonders today Jason.


Summary
Luke 21:22 (NKJV) "For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled." Luke tells us ALL things which are written will be fulfilled in the destruction of Jerusalem. You deny the signs, you simultaneously deny the destruction in 70AD. These signs were warnings of the soon to come destruction. Why were the apostles to hear of wars and rumours of them in the midst of all these signs? Not only did these signs predate the war, they predicted and warned of its coming!

The Bible was not written to us, it was written for us. Thus, when an honest individual sees Jesus tell Peter he will hear of wars, shall be hated, and so forth, it must be admitted all these signs were seen and experienced by Peter as was promised by Jesus. Nowhere does Jesus ever address a future generation or future people.



I will address the rest of Jason's comments in the coming rounds, but it had to be established that the signs did occur within Jesus' generation.


1. Use spell check
To make a long story short, explorer is unstable and I actually submitted a spell checked version, but it shut down in the process. I was already slowed because I had colorfully formatted everything in HTML, but this board doesn't support it. I was simply exhausted and submitted the version above, which contains a few spelling mistakes. Apologies.


2. Take and understand verses in context - not simply a phrase here or there
With all due respect, you need to direct this exact advice to yourself. I always examine the context. You are guilty of ignoring it.


3. Explain why your cited verses cannot refer to a future age I will do this in the next rounds.


4. Study and consider the original language (New Testament Greek)
Repeat these words verbally while looking in a mirror.


5. Consult some scholarly articles on this subject
You say the signs were not fulfilled. You need to consult articles, the Bible, and history with some honesty.


Jon has a number of problems with his case.
I wonder how many honest readers agree with you. I hope this post has begun to show you the problems (one being, unfulfilled signs) are simply a figment of your imagination and the result of your indoctrination into futurism before you were even old enough to speak.


However, if he fails to follow the suggestions above, he’ll surely lose the debate. He has an uphill battle and has offered us no more than a running, opinionated commentary from his limited perspective.

Jason could probably write us all a book full of rude insults and pointless ad hominem attacks. You have made errors in your response, but I'll let the reader notice them. Sticking a red flag next to your mistakes isn't even necessary. Uphill? I don't think so. You have an uphill battle unlearning your unscriptural futurist view. I have already conquered the hill. Consequentially, I cannot honestly call myself a Christian.


Advice for Jason:
-Practice what you Preach
1) Look at the context
2) Read the scriptures
3) Look at history
4) Abstain from rude insults.
5) Give me a chance to present the case. (This is only Round 2)
6) Don't reach for the trophy just yet.


Best regards,
Jon

[KnightWhoSaysNi]

Hello gentlemen,

Just a reminder to please try keeping the tone in the debate civil and to contruct your language more carefully. Comments that may be perceived as mildly condescending (even if not intended) can often bring the flames out.

Thanks for your consideration,

Jason

[Jason Gastrich]

Dear IIDB Readers and Jon,

I hope you’re well.

Thank you for following our debate. Whether you agree with Christianity and the Bible or not, I’m sure you’re beginning to see that Matthew 24 and most of the book of Revelation is prophetic and referring to the future. There are many errors in Jon’s logic and reasoning and there are many cues that show us that these passages of scripture could not be referring to the 1st century A.D.

Keep in mind the resolution of the debate. Jesus Christ promised to return before his generation passed away, not a future generation. Jon is taking the affirmative, so he needs to prove that the resolution is true. Therefore, he has to show that all of the scriptures that futurists understand to be prophetic and referring to a future event are actually referring to the 1st century. I allege that he won’t be able to come anywhere near doing this and we find this again in his 2nd round post. Here is my rebuttal.

Jason wants the believers that are reading to think I made crucial errors, causing them to doubt and skip a fair reading of my posts.

This isn’t true. I’d like readers to read every word of every post in this debate.

Since Jason doesn't believe the signs were fulfilled within the 1st century, he argues the generation referred to must be a future one.

This was never my precedent or foundational point. Many of the prophecies don’t refer to the 1st century. Consequently, they were not fulfilled in the first century.

Matt. 24:6
And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

YES

1) First, notice the Greek word mello (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=3195&version=kjv). If they didn't hear of wars very shortly, Jesus made a false prediction. Jesus said they were "about to" and were "on the point of" hearing of wars. Are you saying Jesus lied?

I don’t see the words “about to� in the text. Nonetheless, the generation that was intended as the recipient of this prophecy will be “about to� hear of wars . . .�

2) In your words Jason, "We can't expect the Bible to record every thing that has happened or was said." To keep Jesus' prediction from being false, I suggest you realize they must have heard from others of coming war before Jerusalem was attacked. The city was destroyed in 70 A.D. Would you have us believe that no one mentioned or feared this coming war. Were the apostles not apart of the information circles at the time.

This is a quotation of mine and a very reasonable one. However, your assumptions aren’t very convincing. The prophecy about wars and rumors of wars didn’t refer to the destruction of the temple in 70 A.D. Quite simply, “wars� is a plural word. Where were these wars? Hint: they are to come.

Do you have any way to demand that this verse be applied to only the 1st century? It surely does not appear so. Your flimsy “about to� case not only went over the heads of the English Bible translators, but could be applied to a future generation and how they were about to hear of wars and rumors of wars.

3) Read it in context.

This is ironic because you pulled one verse out of context and decided to opine on it.


Later in 34, Jesus even gives them many tips to avoid the war. Surely the disciples warned others of the soon to come destruction (and relayed Jesus advice to avoid becoming a casualty), and rumours of wars were born instantly.

Surely you have some evidence for these claims.

It would have been "the talk of the town!" No doubt, numerous doomsayers were spreading true and false information about this war and others on a regular basis. Unless the disciples lived in a box, they most likely heard of wars and rumours of wars on a daily basis.

Even if they heard rumors of “wars,� and you’ve only mentioned one war and argued by assertion for the rest of the way, this verse could still apply to a future generation. It would be very wise to take the chapter in context. If you take the one verse out of context, it will be quite easy to misapply it.

4) Perhaps you forget to read verses 1-3. They heard it from Jesus right away. Jesus was the first to fulfill his very prediction by telling them of the coming war.
Thanks to David B. Curtis for 5 & 6:

Since you are avoiding tackling this issue appropriately, I’ll list the scriptures here and make some comments on them. You’ll see that it’s absurd to say that Jesus told His disciples that He was returning in the 1st century and you’ll also see that it would be absurd to say that He was trying to tell them that all of the things in Matthew 24 were going to happen in the 1st century.

1Then Jesus went out and departed from the temple, and His disciples came up to show Him the buildings of the temple. 2And Jesus said to them, “Do you not see all these things? Assuredly, I say to you, not one stone shall be left here upon another, that shall not be thrown down.�

This was a specific statement about the temple. It was fulfilled in 70 A.D.

3Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?�

Notice three questions here. When will these things be? What will be the sign of your coming? When will the end of the age be? Don’t expect one answer for all of these questions because they are not answered that way.

4And Jesus answered and said to them: “Take heed that no one deceives you. 5For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will deceive many. 6And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. 7For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places. 8All these are the beginning of sorrows.
9“Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake. 10And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. 11Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. 12And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. 13But he who endures to the end shall be saved. 14And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.

There are a lot of verses here and I hope the readers take a minute to read them. You’ll need to prove that all of those things happened in the lifetime of Jesus’ followers, OR you’ll have to prove that Jesus intended for those things to happen. Neither position is tenable, though.

Did the gospel of the kingdom get preached in “all the world� to “all the nations� in the lifetime of Jesus’ followers? Can you prove that the first century saints went to Australia, Japan, and the Americas?

Since Jesus refers to the entire world, He is obviously referring to a future time when the entire world could be evangelized. It would be impossible for the first century saints to preach the gospel in all the world and to all nations.

15“Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place� (whoever reads, let him understand), 16“then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.

Most Christians understand this to be the Anti-Christ in the future temple. How do you account for this passage if you still want to claim it referred to the 1st century?

Do you know that there are currently plans to rebuild the temple? There is a group called the Temple Mount Faithful and many others who want it rebuilt, soon. They even have the temple garments, the temple instruments, and the sacrificial animals ready.

17Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. 18And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. 19But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! 20And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. 21For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.

You’ll have a very hard time reconciling verses 21 and 22. Was the destruction of the temple in 70 A.D. really the greatest tribulation ever? How about Noah’s Flood?

The biggest and most important part that you cannot reconcile is this: “unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.�

How were the days shortened in the lifetime of Jesus’ believers? Most Christians understand this passage as it refers to the future when people are experiencing the judgments in the book of Revelation and how God will end the torment and suffering by returning. This is well documented in Revelation.

Since this passage correlates with Revelation, I suppose you will also have to show that there are obvious and substantial cues in the book of Revelation that tell us that it all refers to the 1st century. Can you do this?

23“Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There!’ do not believe it. 24For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.

I see that this post of yours is supposed to be about signs. Can you show us evidence that there were first century, false christs and prophets that showed “great signs and wonders� to deceive the elect?

It would do you good to give us a verse by verse breakdown regarding what you think was fulfilled and what you think wasn’t fulfilled. As I understand it, your position is that you think all of these prophecies referred to the 1st century, but you think this for various reasons and one of them being that some of these things may have happened in the lifetime of Jesus’ followers. Why don’t you tell us exactly what you think you can prove happened and what you think didn’t happen?

It’s not difficult for a “futurist� like me to point out the things that were unfulfilled, in Matthew and Revelation, and conclude that they are pointing toward a future time. For some of these things, a first century fulfillment would be impossible, so this is a prime indicator that the prophecies weren’t intended for the first century.

Here is an important prophecy that could never have been fulfilled until recently. It refers to a 200 million man army. Are you saying that Jesus or John actually thought a 200 million man army was going to come from East Asia in the 1st century? This would be absurd.

Revelation 9:13-16 reads, “13Then the sixth angel sounded: And I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God, 14saying to the sixth angel who had the trumpet, “Release the four angels who are bound at the great river Euphrates.� 15So the four angels, who had been prepared for the hour and day and month and year, were released to kill a third of mankind. 16Now the number of the army of the horsemen was two hundred million; I heard the number of them�

It took about 2000 more years before a 200 million man army was built. Do you really think that this prophecy was intended for the first century?

[quote]25See, I have told you beforehand.
26“Therefore if they say to you, ‘Look, He is in the desert!’ do not go out; or ‘Look, He is in the inner rooms!’ do not believe it. 27For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 28For wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together.
29“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

There are several problems for the preterist perspective from this passage. For instance, how could the elect be gathered from the four winds (or the four corners of the world), when the gospel hadn’t reached remote places like Japan, the Americas, etc.? Answer: this passage couldn’t be referring to the 1st century. These things were impossible for that time period.

32“Now learn this parable from the fig tree: When its branch has already become tender and puts forth leaves, you know that summer is near. 33So you also, when you see all these things, know that it is near—at the doors! 34Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place. 35Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away.

As I stated in my last round post, this word for “generation� is also translated “age� and refers to the church age. We are still living in the church age, today. The ages of the patriarchs and the prophets have passed.

36“But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, but My Father only. 37But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 38For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, 39and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 40Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left. 41Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and the other left. 42Watch therefore, for you do not know what hour your Lord is coming. 43But know this, that if the master of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched and not allowed his house to be broken into. 44Therefore you also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.

The last verses in this passage are describing a rapture. A rapture is also mentioned by Paul as he used the Greek word “harpazo.� This passage is telling us that there will be a rapture and people will be taken away by God. This is also implied in Revelation; like in the beginning of chapter 4. It’s understood as the context and location in the 3rd and 4th chapters of Revelation change.

As we know, there was no rapture in the 1st century. Why? This is a predicted, future event. Future raptures that have no evidence of needing to be fulfilled in the 1st century were predicted by Paul and John as well.

Here is part of Adam Clarke’s commentary on 1 Thessalonians 4:17:

We which are alive, and remain—By the pronoun we the apostle does not intend himself, and the Thessalonians to whom he was then writing; he is speaking of the genuine Christians which shall be found on earth when Christ comes to judgment. From not considering the manner in which the apostle uses this word, some have been led to suppose that he imagined that the day of judgment would take place in that generation, and while he and the then believers at Thessalonica were in life. But it is impossible that a man, under so direct an influence of the Holy Spirit, should be permitted to make such a mistake: nay, no man in the exercise of his sober reason could have formed such an opinion; there was nothing to warrant the supposition; no premises from which it could be fairly deduced; nor indeed any thing in the circumstances of the Church, nor in the constitution of the world, that could have suggested a hint of the kind. The apostle is speaking of the thing indefinitely as to the time when it shall happen, but positively as to the ORDER that shall be then observed.

The following verses all fulfill Acts 1:8. Men from every nation heard Peter preach the gospel (Acts 2:5,9-11,14); and Peter said it was published throughout Judaea (Acts 10:37, 1 Pet.4:6).

The verses you cited above do not say or imply that the gospel was preached “in all the world� and “to all nations.� The phrase “in all the world� explains “to all nations.� The gospel was to be preached “in all the world� before the second coming of Christ. This didn’t happen in the first century and no biblical author implied that it should have happened.

Paul says he fully preached the gospel (Romans 15:19; 16:19), and it appeared to all men (Titus 2:11.), and it was preached and believed on in the world (1 Timothy 3:16). In Romans 10:18, the word "world" is oikumene, same as Mat.24:24, and the word "earth" is ge, same as Acts 1:8. In Romans 16:25-26, the word "nations" is ethnos, same as Mark 13:10. In Colossians 1:6, the word "world" is kosmos, same as Mark 16:15. In Colossians 1:23, the word "creature" is ktisis, same as Mark 16:15. Hebrews 4:2 says the gospel was preached.

Still, none of these passages say that the gospel had been preached “in all the world� and “to all nations.� Most Christians apply the passage in question to the literal world. This has been one reason why Christians have been so eager to evangelize every tribe and nation in every region of the world. They realize and know that Christ will not return until this happens. In my churches, this hasn’t been a subject of debate, but a topic of surety. We must preach the gospel in all the world and to every indigenous person in every tongue before Christ will return.

Many today say that the gospel has not been preached to all the world and Matthew 24:14 has not yet been fulfilled. The Bible says that all the nations of the world heard the gospel preached before AD 70. Who are you going to believe? To deny that Matthew 24:14 has been fulfilled is to deny the clear statements of God's Holy Word; it is to call God a liar."

Quite sensational. You cannot quote a scripture that says the gospel had been preached “in all the world� and to “all nations.� Have a handful of foreign speaking people hear the gospel in the 1st century clearly isn’t the intent or fulfillment of this prophecy.

24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

YES

1) Many antichrists came, 1 John 2:18, Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time. John knew that the signs had been fulfilled, and he warned "little children" that it was the "last time".

“John knew�? Is this the best evidence you have? Give me a break. Prove that these antichrists performed signs and wonders. Nobody believes your “John knew� claim.

2) David Curtis has answered this issue:

"We learn from Josephus that many such impostors did arise about that time and promised deliverance from God, being persuaded by the tyrants or governors to prevent the people and soldiers from deserting to the Romans ; and the worse the Jews situation, the more open they would be to listen to these deceptions, and the more ready to follow the deceivers. Hegesippus, too, in Eusebius mentions the coming of false Christ's and false prophets about the same time.

These false Christ's and prophets were so convincing that if it were possible, they would have even deceived the elect. Dositheus was reputed to work wonders, according to Origen :

I’d like to see some proof that Dositheus did signs and wonders. Whether or not Dositheus pre-dated Christ is a subject of debate. Link: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05136c.htm

Barchoebebas too, who Jerome saith pretended to vomit flames.

Can you prove this?

Matthew 24:25 "See, I have told you beforehand."
Christ had warned them about the coming of these false Christ's and false prophets.

Matthew 24:26 "Therefore if they say to you, 'Look, He is in the desert!' do not go out; or 'Look, He is in the inner rooms!' do not believe it."
Several of the false Christ's and false prophets led their followers "into the desert." Josephus, in his Antiquities says, "Many impostors and cheats persuaded the people to follow them into the desert, where they promised to show manifest wonders and signs done by the providence of God; and many being persuaded suffered the punishment of their folly; for Felix brought them back, and chastised them.

You quoted your last ½ page of information from http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/mat06.html . You [deleted - NS] quoted it word for word without any citation. Therefore, I ask the forum moderators to give you a warning. You are supposed to cite your information when you paste it from other sources; not try and pass it off as your own work.

The problem with copying and pasting things is that you don’t know THEIR sources. In other words, you still need to prove what THEY are saying is true. Please prove that those two people lived in the 1st century and performed signs and wonders.


SKIPPED / AVOIDED QUESTIONS FROM LAST ROUND

Number 1

Jon: The "holy place" is gone for good. This event in verse 15 has already happened.

Jason: How is the “holy place gone for good�? This is just another argument by assertion. Yes, the temple was destroyed, but it will be rebuilt.

Number 2

Jon: Even my Defender�s Study Bible confesses in the concordance that Paul errantly believed and taught the early return of Christ to the Thessalonians.�

Jason: I have a Defender’s Study Bible and it does not say this. Here is what it does say:

“It is significant to note in these relatively early years of his ministry, Paul considered it likely that he, himself, would be living when Christ returned: “We which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord,� he said.

Of course, I disagree with this commentary. However, I wanted to include it because Jon is incorrect (to put it nicely). This commentary only says that “Paul considered it likely that he would be living when Christ returned.� It “confesses� no error.

You avoided a couple of other things, but I’ll save those for later.

The Bible was not written to us, it was written for us. Thus, when an honest individual sees Jesus tell Peter he will hear of wars, shall be hated, and so forth, it must be admitted all these signs were seen and experienced by Peter as was promised by Jesus. Nowhere does Jesus ever address a future generation or future people.

This is untrue and quite naive. Some of the Bible was written to us.

I will address the rest of Jason's comments in the coming rounds, but it had to be established that the signs did occur within Jesus' generation.

This was far from established. You didn’t come anywhere close to proving that the antichrists performed signs and wonders. You plagiarized a web page and gave very little and very unconvincing evidence regarding two people that may or may not have even been contemporaries with Jesus! Furthermore, your entire argument hinges on the flimsy premise that Matthew 24 was written to and only for the 1st century saints. This is wishful and entirely unsupported. Until you can support this premise with adequate evidence, whether or not you can apply some of the warnings in Matthew 24 to the first century is irrelevant. However, it has already been demonstrated that certain parts of Matthew 24 and Revelation (like the 200 million man army) would be impossible to apply to this generation.

I always examine the context. You are guilty of ignoring it. I will do this in the next rounds.

Well, better late than never. I hope you do. If you do, we may see a mid-debate change of heart and position from you.

Jason could probably write us all a book full of rude insults and pointless ad hominem attacks.

I’m sure anyone could. I won’t, though.

You have made errors in your response, but I'll let the reader notice them. Sticking a red flag next to your mistakes isn't even necessary.

Actually, part of your job as an opponent is to point out my mistakes. Avoiding this is silly and lends us to believe that there either are no mistakes or that you can’t find them.

Sincerely,
Jason Gastrich
Jesus Christ Saves Ministries
http://jcsm.org

[KnightWhoSaysNi]

You quoted your last ½ page of information from http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/mat06.html.Therefore, I ask the forum moderators to give you a warning. You are supposed to cite your information when you paste it from other sources; not try and pass it off as your own work.


Jason,

Prior to the providing the quotes, Jon indicated that they were written by David Curtis. I agree that it was wrong for him not to provide a citation for the quotes, but I might add that you have done the same thing with the quote from Adam Clarke. You would therefore be guilty of the same infraction you charge Jon for. Clarke's commentary is here:

http://www.studylight.org/com/acc/view.cgi?book=ro&chapter=013

To both participants, in future statements, please provide the reference or URL link to a source when quoting someone else's work. It is not enough to simply name the author. I'd also recommend using quote boxes when quoting someone else. Nevertheless, I apologize for overlooking this error and will be more attentive in reviewing statements in the future.

Jason

[Jon Promnitz]

Hello Jason and readers,

Unfortunately, I’ll have to waste an unanticipated amount of words in this post to defend myself. Some of Jason’s comments towards me need to be examined. I’ll keep the tone low and formal.


[deleted - NS] /ATTACKS
JasonSays: SKIPPED/AVOIDED QUESTIONS FROM LAST ROUND
I made it clear throughout the Round 2 post I was focusing on the signs and would address the rest of Jason’s comments in the coming rounds. I even sent Jason a specific email informing him that my post covered the signs and only the signs. You even capitalized it! If you’ll notice, I discussed all the relevant ‘sign’ points up to verse 24. The word AVOIDED makes it look as if I have evasively run from your ‘arguments.’ I’m not trying to avoid your questions. This is [deleted - NS] hogwash.

You plagiarized a web page…You are supposed to cite your information when you paste it from other sources; not try and pass it off as your own work.
Jason accuses me of plagiarism. This is simply NOT true. Before all of David's work I made a statement which acknowledged him. I forgot to paste a source link as you forgot to do with Clarke's commentary. Reminding me to provide a source link was adequate, but then you actually accused me of trying to take credit for David’s work because I forgot to provide a link. This is a ridiculous [deleted - NS]!

So far you have accused me of avoiding questions, trying to take credit for David’s work, and have belittled my perspective. Consequentially, I had to waste words addressing your attacks. In my opinion, an apology should be in order for the poor taste in your statements.


JASON’S REBUTTAL TO SIGNS
I didn’t doubt Jason would raise some objections. But I must admit I’m surprised at some of the points he tries to make.
(Round1)The list of things that had to be accomplished before His return had not been completed in the 1st century.
(Round2)This was never my precedent or foundational point. Many of the prophecies don’t refer to the 1st century. Consequently, they were not fulfilled in the first century.
It is a foundational point
1)In both rounds, you say the signs hadn’t been fulfilled. They you say “this generation� equals some random future generation because “Many of the prophecies don’t refer to the 1st century…Consequently, they were not fulfilled in the first century.� It is central to your to position. Your very interpretation of Matthew 24:34 is based on this foundation. As we’ll soon see, the Greek word genea certainly doesn’t refer to an indefinite period of time or an indefinite age (i.e. The Church Age).
2)Jason says it’s not one of his ‘foundational points’, and yet makes two statements showing he interprets 24:34 to be a future generation because the signs “were not fulfilled in the first century�

Matthew 24
24:6-wars/rumours of wars
1)The prophecy about wars and rumors of wars didn’t refer to the destruction of the temple in 70 A.D.
2)Quite simply, “wars� is a plural word.
3)Where were these wars?
You contradict yourself!
1)A meaningless assertion. Prove it!
2)Clearly “wars� is plural. Notice the verse doesn’t call for MANY wars. Just wars.
3)You forgot to read 5&6 in my last post. I have shown many wars occurred. Show me historical evidence proving Jerusalem was a peaceful region in the 1st century. Also, tell me why Jesus looks at them and says YOU, and doesn’t plainly speak of a future people.
Self-Contradiction: You have no quarrel with my evidence in 24:7 about Nation rising against Nation and Kingdom against Kingdom in MANY divers places. Yet you say there were not MANY wars!?
Historical: You ignored the evidence in 5&6. There were MANY wars and rumors of wars in the 1st century.
Biblical: No passages deny fulfillment.
Conclusion: This sign was fulfilled. No evidence exists to the contrary.

24:7-nation vs. nation/kingdom vs. kingdom/famines/earthquakes/in divers places
Jason errantly claimed these didn’t happen in Round 1. Even after seeing the evidence that these things happened in many places, he still claims there were not “wars� in his critique of verse 6.
Conclusion: These signs were fulfilled. Two of them go ‘hand in hand’ with 24:6.

24:9-delivered/killed/hated among all nations
In favor of Jason or myself?
Historical: Christians have been delivered, killed, and hated. (among all nations?) It is impossible to prove they were hated among all nations through historical records. It is also impossible to prove absolutely that they weren’t hated among all nations by looking at secular history.
Biblical: No passages deny fulfillment. No verses speak of not being hated by all nations. Other verses must be used.
Present: I presume Jason believes that sometime soon, the gospel will have reached all nations and then Christians will be hated by all nations. Let’s apply this process to the first century. If all nations heard, shortly thereafter, they would have been hated among all nations.
Context: We must use some basic steps of problem solving to get to the bottom of this issue. All that must be done is look at similar or closely related verses. For example, 24:14 speaks of spreading the gospel to all nations. If the gospel was spread to all nations, or if the inspired Apostles believed it had been, it would be quite reasonable to conclude that this sign was fulfilled. Being if all nations had heard the gospel, all nations now would have hate for Christianity, as it would affect their lifestyles, change their customs, contradict their religious beliefs, infuriate many religious leaders, and so forth. We must also take into account who Jesus is speaking to.
…continued in 24:14.

24:13-some would die
Prove that all of Jesus’ generation was to die. Nowhere can such a statement be found!
Conclusion: The lack of such a statement is evidence NO future generation or descendants were in view. Why