Did God design the 'Great Pyramid'? -- WILLOWevcTREE vs. Pervy Hobbit Fancier

[KnightWhoSaysNi]

This thread has been set up for a formal debate between WILLOWevcTREE and Pervy Hobbit Fancier on the following resolution:

Resolved: The 'Great Pyramid' must have been designed and/or built by God

WILLOWevcTREE will take the affirmative and Pervy Hobbit Fancier will oppose. The debate will last for 5 rounds and statements will be submitted concurrently, as agreed to from the parameters (http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showpost.php?p=1736422&postcount=12).

A Peanut Gallery (http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=93012) is set up in the Science & Skepticism forum for the rest of us to comment on the debate.

Good luck to both participants!

Jason

[WILLOWTREE]

Wherever the greatest controversy exists - the greatest truth is contained therein.

King of controversy is the Bible and its claims.

The chief criticism leveled at the Bible is purported text corruption. It is charged that there is no way to know what the alleged authors really said.

Translations contain theological bias and errors. But even if these issues could be resolved word meanings are problematic and complex. Secular critics relentlessly focus on the aforementioned issues (all legitimate to a certain extent) for the single purpose of CREATING DOUBT and the subsequent wholesale dismissal of the Bible.

Where is the first sin in the Bible ?

Answer: Wherever the first question mark is found.

Genesis 3:1

Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?

There is the first sin - to question God - to doubt what He said.

Eve knew very well what God said - she went on to repeat that God said not to eat from THAT tree.

Satan, as embodied in the serpent, is thus evidenced to have ONE objective: Make the world DOUBT what God said. When doubt is achieved then the world will not take seriously the looming judgement of hell - mission accomplished.

When doubt is achieved the only way of escape from the judgement of hell - the gospel - is voided.


Even with all of the issues of text corruption and secular hostilities painting question marks upon Holy Writ - in lieu of all this, God still decided to produce a written record to communicate His word.

I contend and aim to prove that God anticipated the success of text DISTRUST as He devised a way to inform a modern doubting world that the central claims and message of the Bible is intac and trustworthy.

Isaiah 46:10

I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say: My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please.

I contend the Great Pyramid is the written word of God in stone.

I contend that IF YOU THINK the written word has been corrupted then the GP will prove that it HAS NOT.

I contend the GP to PERFECTLY symbolize the central message and claims of the Bible, and I contend that it does so while "pouring it on".

I contend that if true THEN the world has irrefutable corroborating evidence of the veracity of the Bible and its message and claims.

Dr. Scott says "the GP is God's lifeline to a corrupted by doubt scientific generation".

The GP is a physical structure whose "verses" are in stone and cannot be changed.

When Dr. Scott first became aware of the Divine claims of the GP he laughed his ass off. Men with Ph.D's cannot be fooled with such nonsense. David Davidson said the same thing and became so angry with such foolishness he went to Egypt with the single intent of disproving these claims.

Both Dr. Scott and David Davidson have led the way in proving the claims.

Yet, I will use neither source in my evidenciary arguments.


This concludes my opening statement.


Willowtree

[Dean Anderson]

Before I start, I would like to thank WILLOWevcTREE (hereafter referred to as WT) for agreeing to debate with me, and to thank IIDB for hosting this debate. (Throughout this debate, I will be referring to WT as 'he'. Since I do not actually know WT's gender, I wish to apologise in advance if WT is actually female and this causes offence.)

The title of this debate is “Resolved: The 'Great Pyramid' must have been designed and/or built by God�. I will be taking the negative point of view. WT will be taking the affirmative.

The 'Great Pyramid' referred to in this title is the largest of the three pyramids at the Giza site, just outside Cairo in north Egypt. It is commonly known as the 'Pyramid of Cheops' or the 'Pyramid of Khufu', named after the Pharaoh who has been traditionally identified as its patron – Cheops being the Hellenicised form of the Egyptian Khufu.

Since the view that the pyramid must have been designed and/or built by God is both a positive claim and also a minority claim outside the mainstream of historical scholarship, I maintain that WT has the burden of proof on this issue. It is not enough for him to demonstrate that the pyramid could have been designed by God. He must demonstrate that design by God is the most sensible conclusion to draw from the available evidence.

During the course of this debate, I will be concentrating on two parallel streams. Firstly, I will be offering evidence supporting the mainstream view that the pyramid was built by the Egyptian people during the reign of Pharoah Khufu – One of the pharaohs of the Dynasty IV of Egypt's Old Kingdom.

Since this is only an introduction, there is no room for me to present such evidence and arguments in full during this round. However, here is a summary of the main points of evidence that I will be showing in future rounds:

1) Similarity in style and construction methods to other pyramids built by the Egyptians.

2) Excavations of ramps and other building-site/quarrying paraphernalia.

3) Excavations of worker camps and documentary evidence found therein detailing the numbers and names of the work-gangs involved in construction.

4) Hieroglyphs found inside the pyramid indicating that it was built on behalf of Khufu.

I will be presenting full evidence and sources for each of the above claims in the following round(s) of this debate.

Secondly, I will also be attempting to refute the claims of my opponent. This will be the main stream of my argument, since - even if all my evidence pointing to Egyptian origin falls - the onus is still on WT to demonstrate that the pyramid must have been built by God, rather than simply being of unknown origin.

Naturally, I can't detail exactly what refutations I will be making until WT makes his claims.

[WILLOWTREE]

http://www.gizapyramid.com/map20.jpg

Body of Evidence # 1

LAYER 1:

The diagram above depicts the interior passage system AND it also depicts the central message and claims of the Bible.

The long descending passage, which after its lengthy descent, levels out for a short span and then abruptly and suddenly drops off into a pit. (points 1 -13 -14)

This symbolizes the path of all mankind since the Fall of Adam/Eve.
The Bible says mankind is lost, separated from God, going to hell, in need of salvation.

Long descending passage which leads to the pit = The Biblical message/claim that mankind is on an inescapable downward path to hell.

The first ascending passage (point 5) symbolizes the intruding initiative of God via Mosaic Law. God interupts mankinds free fall toward the pit/hell when He kept His promise to Abraham and through Moses brought the Israelites out of Egypt.

Notice that this ascending passage is darkened (bottom/left point 5).
That darkened span represents three granite plugs (still there today) and these plugs symbolize that the ascent upwards cannot begin without a miracle: parting of the Red Sea.

The ascending passage is very narrow and a person must crouch to ascend which symbolizes ascent under Mosaic Law.

Mankind cannot even begin his escape from the downward path without a miracle of deliverance and then he is ascending under the confines of an impossible Divine law which is perfectly symbolized by having to bend over while walking up.

The Bible claims that God brought forth the Israelites by miracle from Egypt and then gave them His law.

Then this ascending passage suddenly bursts open and expands to what is known as the Grand Gallery. (point 5 to point 7)

This sudden expansion symbolizes what the death and Resurrection of Christ accomplished - the age of grace - freedom from the impossible demands of Mosaic Law.

Now mankind, because of Christ, can walk uprightly in the Grand Gallery of God's grace. This is what the passages depict - this is what the Bible claims.

Locate the end of the Well Shaft where it intersects with the long descending passage (just beneath point 17).

This Well Shaft depicts the Resurrection of Christ.

Mankind on his downward path to the pit/hell is saved from that destiny by the Resurrection of Christ - which the lower end of the Shaft is located just before the abrupt fall into the pit/hell.

The Bible and its believers constantly proclaim how the Resurrected Christ saved them from hell. This is what the passages/Well Shaft perfectly depicts.

The ONLY way to be lifted up and out (from your inescapable descent to hell) is by that Well Shaft, and that Well Shaft is impossible to travel up into the Grand Gallery of Grace unless Christ does it miraculously via miracle.

This is what the Bile claims, that the Resurrection of Christ will save you from hell/pit and forgive your sins, and transport you into the grace of God.
This miracle is only accomplished BY FAITH in the Resurrection, which is the gospel - the good news that God will accept faith in place of the works of Mosaic Law to relate to Him.

This entire passage system perfectly symbolizes the Fall and condition of mankind as claimed in the Bible.

This entire passage system perfectly symbolizes the Exodus/Red Sea/Mosaic law and the christian era of grace accomplished by the death and Resurrection of Christ.

Layer 2:

Sources:

Dr. E. Raymond Capt M.A., A.I.A., F.S.A., SCOT
"The Great Pyramid Decoded" [Artisan Sales, 1971]

Dr. Adam Rutherford F.R.A.S., F.R.G.S., in Egypt 1925, 1950, 1963-5
"Pyramidology Book 1" [London, 1957]

Peter Lemesurier; "Decoding the Great Pyramid" [London, 1977]

According to Sir John Herschel, Astronomer Royal of England (discoverer of the planet Uranus) and Professor C. Piazzi Smyth, Astronomer Royal for Scotland:

The long descending passage is aligned to true north, that the angle of decline is in direct alignment with the pole star/North star.

Polaris is the pole star/North star today and its light shines down into that passage but only partially as the alignment is off. When researchers discovered this they immediately set out to determine if any pole star/North star ever was in perfect aligment to shine its light all the way to the bottom.

According to all the sources cited above, ONLY in 2141 BC did the light of the pole star/North star shine down to the bottom of the descending passage.

The precession of the Equinoxes is about a 26 thousand year cycle, this means that about every 2000 years the pole star/North star will change.

In 2141 BC the pole star/North star was Draconis/Dragon Star.

Refer to point # 4 on the diagram. This denotes what are called the "Scored Lines" engraved upon the passage. These purposely cut lines stand out as they run contrary to the grain of the passage stones, they seem to be a marker intentionally cut into the rock.

If you project the angle of these lines out into space they will intersect Alcyone of the Pleiades.

Therefore, ONLY in 2141 BC did Draconis perfectly align with the descending passage AND Alcyone with the Scored Lines.

This further evidences and reinforces the depiction of mankind under the influence of Satan on a path of destruction going to hell. Draconis/Dragon Star perfectly symbolizes Satan and the claim and message of the Bible that mankind is doomed living under the jurisdiction of Satan because of the disobedience of Adam/Eve.

Alcyone of the Pleiades, referred to in Job 38:31, represents the sweet influences of God.

These two alignments intersecting at point # 4, occurring only in 2141 BC become a starting bench mark date for a PROPHETIC CHRONOGRAPH.

Assume with me that the measuring unit used to build the GP is the Pyramid/British inch. (evidence of such is coming up) The British inch is 1/1000 th of an inch shorter than what is called the Sacred inch or the Pyramid inch. This means for all intents and purposes that the British inch and Pyramid inch are identical.

Assigning an inch for a year, and beginning at 2141 BC, the distance in inches from point # 4 to point # 5 (which represents the Exodus/Red Sea miracle) comes to 1453 BC the year of the Exodus.

This confirms the Layer 1 claim of the ascent symbolizing the intrusion of God via Sinai Law.

Continue up in distance to point # 7, that is from point # 5/1453 BC and the inch to a year date is 33 AD !

That is the distance from point # 5 to point # 7, inch = 1 year = 33 AD death and Resurrection of Christ.

The 1 inch to 1 year prophetic chronograph expands upward at exactly 33 AD which confirms the Layer 1 symbolism of the death of Christ accomplishing the age of grace, which also perfectly confirms the symbolism of the Well Shaft/Resurrection of Christ breaking open at that exact point.

Body of Evidence # 2

Layer 3:

Unit of Measurement:

What is a cubit ?

Royal Cubit = 20.63 British inches.

Sacred Cubit = 25.0266 British inches.

This cubit is divided into 25 equal parts called the "inch" and this inch = 1.001064 British inches.

In the chamber called "Ante-Chamber" there is a "raised Boss" in the shape of a horseshoe.
This Boss is exactly 5 sacred inches in length and 1 sacred inches in raised height.
Thus 5 x 5 becomes the length of the sacred cubit which said length is determined by its standard unit of measure revealed in the raised height of the Boss - 1 inch.

This Ante-Chamber, which is the chamber that precedes the Kings Chamber has a raised ceiling. It is in this room which scientists have determined that both the Royal Cubit and the Sacred Cubit are BOTH employed as the measuring unit and BOTH are accurate.

Source of preceding information: Dr. Adam Rutherford; "Pyramidology Book 1"

Excerpt from "Pyramidology Book 1" by Dr. Adam Rutherford (pages 75,76):

"On making a scientific examination of the Sacred Cubit in the Pyramid, it is found to bear an exact relationship to the size of the Earth. This cubit is discovered to be the exact 10,000,000th of the mean distance from the center of the Earth to the Poles, or in othe words the precise 10,000,000th part of the Earth's semi-polar diameter. The results of the latest geodetic research since the International Geophysical Year 1957-8 reveal that the mean polar radius of the Earth, as deduced from observation of the orbits of artificial Earth satellites is 3949.9 miles. Dividing this figure by 10,000,000, the result is 25.0266 British inches (corrected to four places of decimals), the precise length of the Sacred Cubit of the Great Pyramid.
Thus the Earth's mean polar radius measures 10,000,000 Sacred Cubits or 250,000,000 Pyramid inches; hence the Pyramid inch is the 500,000,000th of the Earth's polar diameter.

French savants conceived the idea of instituting a unit of linear measure based upon the size of the Earth, and invented the meter, which from a scientific standpoint is very faulty.

The French meter was arrived by taking 10,000,000 part of the so called quadrant of the Earth as calculated from the North Pole to the Equator, along a meridian passing through Dunkirk. The Earth IS NOT a perfect sphere, the said distance is not a true quadrant, hence it is not truly scientific to determine a unit of straight measure from such a curved surface.

Scientifically, a unit of straight measure should be based on the straight distance corresponding to the curved semi-meridian, namely the semi-axis or polar radius of the Earth, as has been done correctly in the case of this Sacred Cubit.

Furthermore, the Earth's axis is the only LONG CONSTANT NATURAL STRAIGHT LINE on our planet, and it is also truly international, for all nations rotate round it once every day. How appropriate that the Pyramid's units of measurement should be accurately based upon it !

Thus the Designer of the Pyramid long forestalled modern man in the scientific idea of having a unit of measure based on the size of the Earth. Indeed, the Pyramid's Sacred Cubit is really the French meter scientifically and mathematically corrected over 4,000 years before the French scientists even thought of the idea of having a unit of linear measure based on the dimensions of the Globe.

When the meter was brought into existence, a French mathematician named M. Callet in his book "Logarithmus", published in 1795, suggested that the meter should be the 10,000,000th of the Earth's mean polar radius instead of being based on the irregularly curved surface of the Earth. Without being aware of it, M. Callet was suggesting the truly scientific Sacred Cubit in the design of the Great Pyramid."

Body of Evidence # 3

Layer 4:

Height of Great Pyramid and Isaiah 19: 19, 20

Click here to see a chart which correlates the height of the GP with verses in Isaiah which identify the GP to be from God:

http://members.tripod.com/conifer.co/pyramid_scripture.htm

This chart is the original work of Dr. Rutherford and is found in his "Pyramidology" volumes of books.

The claim is that the height of the GP, that is from the ground to the top of the original summit platform is EXACTLY 5449 Pyramid inches (PI).

Hebrew letters have numeric value and the grand total of the verses which speak of the GP add up to exactly 5449 - the height of the GP.

The GP today is no longer 5449 PI" in height. Vandalism and weather have reduced its height even though vestigial remnants of the 203rd course/original summit platform still exist.

IF the GP was indeed 5449 PI" in height as left by the buliders then the object as described in Isaiah 19 is the GP.

Isaiah 19 says "in the midst of the land of Egypt and on the border thereof"

NILE-DELTA QUADRANT

This link contains a diagram of the quadrant:

http://www.egyptarchive.co.uk/his_html/smyth_20.html

Map produced by the United States Coast Survey, Henry Mitchell 1868
source: Peter Lemesurier, "Decoding the Great Pyramid"

Link plate and diagram produced by Prof. Piazzi Smyth, Astronomer Royal of Scotland.

From E. Raymond Capt, "The Great Pyramid Decoded"

"The Great Pyramid of Gizeh stands at the geometric center and yet at the southern extremity of the Quadrant. The southern extremity, being the northenmost edge of the Giza plateau where the Great Pyramid stands looking over the fan-shaped sector of Egypt, was in ancient times at the boundary where the cultivated land touched the desert. This plateau was called Giza, which is the Arabic word for edge or border. It was this unusual location that first suggested the Great Pyramid was the monument spoken of in the Scriptures by Isaiah the prophet. Since the full official name of the Pyramid, the Great Pyramid of Giza, means, in English, the Great Pyramid of the Border, the answer to the apparently contradictory defintion of Isaiah is found in the Great Pyramid. The only spot on the face of the Earth that completely answers this description, both geometrically and geographically, is the precise place where the Great Pyramid actually stands. END CAPT EXCERPT.

The point is that the GP sits on the border of Upper and Lower Egypt and in the exact center of the Nile-Delta Quadrant.

In Isaiah's day, the border of Upper and Lower Egypt is where the GP was built, thus it is in the "midst of the land of Egypt and on the border thereof".

Layer 5:

Height of GP:

From "Pyramidology" Book III, Dr. Adam Rutherford:

"The figure of 5448.7360 PI is the height of the GP geometrically derived. Deduct the Rectification Factor multiplied by the tangent of the Pyramidic 'pi' angle (Casing angle). Expressed arithmetically:

5813.0125-364.2765=5448.7360 PI"

The Pyramid's summit platform therefore lies within the 5449th PI above the pavement level at the base and in the Bible this number is the identification number of Isaiah 19:19,20" END RUTHERFORD QUOTE.

What this means :

BECAUSE the GP's sides were built at this angle of slope: 51 degrees 51' 14.3"

This means the GP was built incorporating Pi.

51 degrees 51' 14.3" = angle of slope of pi.

The GP is the only Pyramid in the world to be built at this angle.

How did some camel riding egyptian know this ?

Anyway,

This means if you measure the length of the base sides and determine the angle of slope the height MUST converge at a certain figure.

Rutherford's figures above measured the full square base circuit OF the outer perimeter according to the four socket stones which reside outside the as-built casing stone perimeter.

This measurement = height of 5813 PI" geometrically determined.

Subtract the differential figure (also called Rectification Factor), that is the figure representing the difference between the outer socket perimeter AND the as-built casing perimeter = 364 PI".

5813 - 364 = 5449 PI"

Over the centuries the outer layer of casing stones were stripped by Muslims who built their mosques with them.

But, enough of them remain at the base to project accurately their original measurements and position.

Here is a link clearly showing this:

http://www.gizapyramid.com/newtour2.htm

When these casing stones were stripped this exposed the inner core masonry.

In 1940 an aerial photograph discovered that the sides of the GP were SLIGHTLY concave.

Here is a link showing this concavity discovery:

http://www.catchpenny.org/concave.html

Here is a diagram produced by Rutherford showing the outer socket stone perimeter, also called "full-design", and the as-built perimeter of casing stones projected, and the hollowed in concavity of the core masonry:

http://www.gizapyramid.com/exhibit1.jpg

Full-design = ABCD = perfectly square base platform, based upon original foundation sockets.

LMNO = perfectly square base platform as actually built. THIS perimeter is the circuit square from which the limestone casing stones were stripped.
When they were stripped, this revealed the hollowed in masonry.

SWXTYZU pi symbol triangle symbol VQI [Note: the two symbols do not represent any mathematical purpose] = Base of core masonry.

The most important point is that the depth of side concavity = 35.762 PI"

Depth of side concavity = differential/Rectification Factor of 286.102 PI"

35.762 multiplied = 286.102 PI" = the overall difference between outer circuit socket square (ABCD) and as-built casing stone circuit square (LMNO).

BTW:

AB = 365.242 Sacred Cubits (SC = 25 PI") = number of days in Solar Tropical Year.
AEFB = 365.256 SC = number of days in Sidereal Year
AbB = 365.259 SC = number of days in Anomalistic Year ("b" obscured between "w" and "x")

These amazing in-built measurement facts would never be known unless casing stones were stripped. No ancient human civilization had this knowledge.

Layer 6:

Evidence of Pi

http://img16.exs.cx/img16/4828/scan60.jpg

Circumference = pi x diameter.

The GP is built according to pi.

C = pi + D = pi + 2xR (radius)

The important aspect in the image is obscured.
If you look at the extreme upper left corner of the square, where the diagonal line intersects the corner, barely visible is an arc curve touching the base line of the GP and the left slope angle line.
That slope is 51 degrees 51' 14.3"

Please study this diagram carefully. It declares that GP perfectly expresses pi.

Once again, the GP is the only Pyramid built at this angle. If you know the base side length and the angle of slope the height is calculated and it removes any doubt as to the height, BUT the GP never contained a CAPSTONE. How then do we account for this missing stone in the height determination ?

This was already briefly addressed.

First, I must provide the main body of height measurement figures.

Layer 7

From "Pyramidology Book 3", by Dr. Adam Rutherford:

"Before we are in a position to check the accuracy of the GP's chronograph and ascertain the degree of precision therein, it is necessary to ensure that we have the dimensions of the passages and chambers as constructed by the ancient builders. Should there have been any distortion of any parts through subsidence, earthquakes, etc., then we must ascertain the original positions and measurements.

The geometric construction of the original angle of the sloping passages, and proved by four independant methods to be 26 degrees 18' 9.72609", the trigonometrical ratios of which are all expressible in terms of pi, hence can be stated to any number of decimal places desired. Any deviation from that angle in the passages as they are found today would show that movement had taken place since the GP's erection." END RUTHERFORD QUOTE

From "Decoding the Great Pyramid" pages 235-243, by Peter Lemesurier:

"The data which follow, are based throughout on figures supplied by Rutherford. Readers surprised by the extraordinary degree of precision claimed would do well to consider the following facts:

During the last century or so the GP has been measured ad nauseam, both inside and out, not merely by amateur archaeologists, but by numerous professional surveyors, some of whom have spent literally months on the site using the most up-to-date equipment available - parts of it specifically designed with the GP in mind. Due and precise allowance having been made for the effects of observed temperature-variation on the instruments themselves, for subsidence-distortion, and for wear and exfoliation of the ancient stone, the result has been a series of figures already of outstanding accuracy, and expressed in each case to clearly defined tolerances.

Rutherford's own figures for the GP, almost without exception, well within the stated tolerances of the most authoritative surveys.

Some of the measurements involved turn out to be clear and direct functions of the distance 365.242 PI" and the quantity pi. The fact that pi can theoretically be calculated to an infinite number of decimal places once again produces figures in which fractions figure prominently.

In side elevation, the GP and its passageways present a clear geometric figure composed largely of straight lines and based on known angles and levels, these too have been meticulously surveyed on many occasions.

Trigonometrical calculation therefore makes it possible finally to check many of the "raw" measurements against each other, thus exposing even the slightest inaccuracy. For this, absolutely precise data are essential, and any prior rounding up or down would invalidate the results.

Rutherford's final figures, as listed below, are almost alone in passing this crucial test in flying colors, in that they "fit" each other trigonometrically to make a perfect and self-consistent system - as any correct assessment of the GP's measurements ultimately must do. There seems to be no alternative, therefore, but to accept Rutherford's figures as they stand, as representing the best available assessment of the GP's intended dimensions.

Rutherford: Base square of side: 9131.05 PI" (365.242 Sacred Cubits)(SC=25 sacred inches/one sacred inch is 1/1000th of a sacred inch longer than the British inch) Square base perimeter: 36524.2 PI"

On this basis, the observed angle of slope of 51 degrees 51' 14.3" would total a height of just over 5813 PI"

In 1925, professional surveyor J.H. Cole produced "Determination of the Exact Size and Orientation of the Great Pyramid" [Cairo, Government Press, 1925]:

West Side: 9059.5766 PI"
North Side: 9055.4078 PI"
East Side: 9060.9137 PI"
South Side: 9063.3914 PI"
Total Perimeter of Base: 36239.2895 PI"

Lemesurier:

Cole himself suggests an average tolerance of some 1 1/4 inches per side.
Extrapolating from Cole's figures, which are based on a concavity of 35.762 PI" the base square would thus be:

West Side: 9131.1021 PI"
North Side: 9126.9333 PI"
East Side: 9132.4392 PI"
South Side: 9134.9169 PI"
Total Perimeter of Base: 36525.3915 PI"

Cole and Rutherford therefore are 1 1/4 inches apart, with the total distance involved to be well over a half of mile. For all practical purposes these two figures can be regarded as identical.
END LEMESURIER QUOTE.

Remember, Rutherford made his measurements in Egypt in 1957 and Cole in 1925.

Layer 8

Height and Missing Capstone Data

http://img2.exs.cx/img2/4890/00000001.jpg

From "Decoding the Great Pyramid" by Peter Lemesurier, text and image:

GP's Internal Geometric Definition of its Missing Capstone

From the diagram, which is entirely based upon the measurements and figures of Dr. Adam Rutherford:

1) AB represents the top of a cross-section taken through the FULL-DESIGN Pyramid at the Passage-Axis, 286.1 PI" to the east of the buildings own north-south axis ( 286.1 PI" left of center axis).
AB therefore measures 2 x 286.1 PI", or 572.2 PI".

2) Meanwhile height of AB above base GH
=5448.736 PI" geometrically.

3) But total floor-line length of lower passageways also = 5448.736 PI"

4) Combined heights of Queen's Chamber air-shaft outlets E and F in core-masonry = 2724.368 PI" + 2724.368 PI" = 5448.736 PI"

5) Combined course levels of King's Chamber air-shaft outlets C and D in core masonry = 102 courses + 101 courses = 203 courses.

6) Original height of GP's present 203rd course = 5448.736 PI"

7) Taking numbers 2, 3, 4, and 6 (above) together, it becomes clear that the GP's architect wished to emphasize that level AB was of some overriding importance, and that he therefore deliberately included the above four references to it in his design.

8) It seems logical to conclude that this level was intended to be seen as that of the GP's planned "temporary summit" - which, in the full design, would have taken the form of a square platform of side 572.2 PI" and perimeter 2288.8 PI" or 8 x 286.1 PI".

9) In the reduced design Pyramid as built, the perimeter of the summit platform (like that of each of the GP's courses) would thus have measured 286.1 PI" LESS than in the full design, or 2002.7 PI"
(7 x 286.1 PI")

10) The above facts would necessarily produce the following data for the intended full-design capstone:
Base-side = 572.2 PI" or 2 x 286.1 PI"
Base-perimeter = 2288.8 PI" or 8 x 286.1 PI"

Height = 364.2765 PI"

Slope = 51 degrees 51' 14.3"
Height of Base above GP's base = 5448.736 PI"
Number of courses above King's Chamber floor = 153

11) In the event it is clear that no such capstone was ever installed by the builders.

Diodorus Siculus, in the first century BC describes the building as apexless, yet insists that it was otherwise in perfect condition - a fact which confirms beyond all reasonable doubt that no capstone as such was even installed or cemented in place.

That one purpose at least of the two Queen's Chamber ventilators is to define, in terms of the combined heights above the base of the two core masonry outlets, the level of the designed summit-platform. In other words:
Height, north outlet + Height, south outlet = Height, summit platform.
This would tie in with the fact that the King's Chamber ventilator-outlets clearly define the course number of the summit platform in a similar way. The dual defintion of this all important level was presumably intended by the architect as a precaution against possible later destruction of the upper courses - such as has indeed occurred.
END LEMESURIER EXCERPTS/QUOTES.

We have the height geometrically proven.

The base perimeter is measured, then the slope is determined.

This means that the four corners of slope MUST converge at a height of 5813 PI".

Subtract the dimensions of the phantom capstone based upon the intended full-design (evidenced above), which is based upon the sockets visible in the bedrock. This can only be viewed as an intentional error - full-design sockets layed in solid rock yet not used.

But as evidenced above, we do not have to rely on a single avenue to determine the height of the GP.

The geometric determination is confirmed and corroborated by the descending distance of the entry passage followed to its abrupt end.
(5448.736 PI")

The two ventilators in the Queen's Chamber combined length is also 5448.736 PI"

To have this PRECISE number, that is 5448.736 is undeniably unique and one-of-a-kind. This is brilliant Divine Intelligent Design almost beyond comprehension.

5448.736 is microscopically shy of 5449.

Rightfully rounded to the next whole number is 5449.

Historical cites confirming missing capstone:

Diodorus [Liber I, 63-64]

Pliny the Elder "Historia Naturalis", Book 36.

This site evidences the 203 courses:

http://www.innerx.net/personal/tsmith/gpcourse.html

Full-design measurements = a height of 5813 PI"

But as everyone knows, there is no capstone, nor was there any capstone ever installed.

In order to know the height to the summit platform, that is the 203rd course, they measured the actually built design circuit perimeter. Then they measured the outer perimeter/socket stone/full-design circuit perimeter.

These figures produce a DIFFERENCE of 286.102 PI" between the inner (actual built) and the outer (full-design) circuit squares.

Concavity figure: 35.762 x 8 = 286.102 PI" (its multiple)
Thus, it is obviously deduced that the capstone would of overlapped the summit platform by 286.102 PI" based on full-design.

Layer 9

The original entrance to the GP is located exactly 286.1 PI" to the left of center axis - north side.

The point where the Well Shaft breaks into the descending passage, that is the distance from that point to the abrupt drop-off to the pit is exactly 286.1 PI".

The missing capstone has been evidenced to have been 286.1 PI" larger in total perimeter than that of the 203rd/original summit platform.

This figure of 286.1 is viewed as an intentional error built into the GP.

It is the perfect type and symbol of "SIN".

The original entrance being 286.1 PI" to the LEFT of center.

"LEFT" symbolizes sin - outside of God's will and holiness.

When the Grand Gallery expands upwards where the first ascending passage meets and where the Well Shaft meets, the exact distance of the expansion is 286.1 PI".

This perfectly symbolizes that the "error" of sin and its representation in the figure 286.1 is only rectified at the death and Resurrection of Christ.

This is what the GP perfectly depicts in passage architecture, figure measurements - this is exactly what the Bible claims about Christ's death, that it rectifies our sins IF we embrace the gospel, which rectification happens in the Grand Gallery which symbolizes the age of Grace.

CONCLUSION

Peter Lemesurier, in his book, expresses intolerance of Rutherford's evangelical renderings, but he totally endorses his measurements. This is an objective assessment.

Lemesurier has proven the identical compatibility of secular surveyor J.H. Cole and Rutherford.

This equates to tri-fold evidenciary agreement.

Each layer of evidence stands on its own.

Combine the layers and we have irrefutable evidence proving the GP to be the product of the God of Isaiah.

SUPPOSE any given layer and its evidence is challenged via evidence that suggests it to be a little off.

All the other layers SAY the evidence challenging the evidence in any particular layer to be incorrect.

Each layer and its spectacular evidence guards the others from "refuting" evidence in any particular issue from being true and or dismantling the whole or any slice of the whole.

IOW, the WHOLE disproves any micro-challenge to be incorrect.

All the evidence is self-corroborating and intra-corroborating.

The God of Isaiah built the Great Pyramid, which proves that all the claims of the written word/Bible to be true.

[Dean Anderson]

In this round, I shall mainly be presenting the main evidence that supports my position – that the pyramid was built by Egyptians during the reign of Pharaoh Khufu. However, before I do that, I will address the points made by WT in his introduction.

WT says:

King of controversy is the Bible and its claims.

The chief criticism leveled at the Bible is purported text corruption. It is charged that there is no way to know what the alleged authors really said.

Translations contain theological bias and errors. But even if these issues could be resolved word meanings are problematic and complex. Secular critics relentlessly focus on the aforementioned issues (all legitimate to a certain extent) for the single purpose of CREATING DOUBT and the subsequent wholesale dismissal of the Bible.

Now this debate is not about the errancy (or lack of it) found in Biblical texts – and I have no wish to sidetrack the debate into that field (which, quite frankly, is a whole can-of-worms to itself). However, I must ask what evidence WT has to support his claim that the chief criticism of the Bible from secular sources is about text corruption and translational errors?

Even a cursory glance at secular criticisms of the Bible will reveal that simple things like…

- Errors where the Bible texts disagree with archaeology, geology, biology and astronomy.

- Contradictions between the different books within the Bible.

- Moral discrepancies between the acts of God and the laws that he commands humans to live by.

…are of much more concern to secular critics of the Bible than the possible corruption of the text.

Obvious examples of this concern can be found in print and on the Internet at such secular Biblical criticism pages as Jim Merrit’s List of Biblical Contradictions (http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/jim_meritt/bible-contradictions.html), Dan Barker’s ‘Losing Faith In Faith: From Preacher To Atheist’ (http://ffrf.org/lfif/?t=contra.txt) and The Skeptic’s Annotated Bible (http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/).

This may seem to be a pedantic point for me to be raising – especially since I am not actually arguing that the Bible is errant at this point, merely pointing out that secular critics view it that way – but the issue is central to WT’s argument, as we see here…

I contend and aim to prove that God anticipated the success of text DISTRUST as He devised a way to inform a modern doubting world that the central claims and message of the Bible is intact and trustworthy.

Isaiah 46:10

I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say: My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please.

I contend the Great Pyramid is the written word of God in stone.

I contend that IF YOU THINK the written word has been corrupted then the GP will prove that it HAS NOT.

According to WT, the purpose of the pyramid is to serve as a confirmation of the Biblical texts that will avoid the criticism of textual corruption that the Biblical texts attract; since the pyramid – being made of stone – cannot be changed in the way that texts can be.

There are two very good reasons, though, why this view of the pyramid’s purpose is logically flawed.

Firstly, as I have shown above, the majority of criticisms of the Bible are not those of corruption. Creating a pyramid in order to counter such a minor part of Biblical criticism whilst leaving the vast majority of criticisms unanswered is not a logically sensible thing for God to do.

Secondly, the pyramid has changed. “Set In Stone� may mean unchangeable when used as an idiom – but stone is far from unchangeable in reality. The smooth outer casing is now missing, as is the capstone that sits on top. If the pyramid were to be an unchanging monument that embodied sacred measurements in its dimensions then it should still have the same dimensions as when it was built. Millennia of erosion and acts of vandalism and attempted tomb-robbing over the years have changed the dimensions from what they were when it was built. This is crucially important when we are talking about dimensions that need to be measured correctly to within a fraction of an inch in order to be significant.

Having addressed the arguments made by WT in his opening statement, I now move on to the main evidence for an Egyptian origin for the pyramid.




The first piece of evidence that I wish to present is the similarity between the structure and design of the pyramid with the other pyramids in Egypt.

Egypt contains over 100 pyramids of varying sizes and ages. These range from crude ‘step’ pyramid to the ‘true’ pyramids and then on to pyramid-mastaba tomb complexes. As we move from type to type, we see that the design and the construction methods become more complex and more advanced. It is not coincidence that the pyramids with the more advanced construction techniques and designs are the ones whose inscriptions imply a later construction date. This is exactly what one would expect if the pyramids were built by generations of Egyptian workers whose engineering skill improved over time. The Egyptian Tourist Board says about the step pyramid compared to the true pyramids:

The earliest form of pyramid, the step, dates back to the 3rd Dynasty, and consists of several steps. A descending passage from the north leads to the burial chamber. Underground galleries surround the pyramid on all but the south sides. The first, and probably the only step pyramid ever completed, is that of King Netjerykhet Djoser at Saqqara. The Step pyramid is not near as pleasing to the eye as the True pyramid, which could explain the quick abandonment of this type of pyramid.

The true pyramid is a natural development and improvement on the step pyramid. The first true pyramids were introduced in at the beginning of the 4th Dynasty. The structure of a True Pyramid is virtually the same as a step pyramid. Packing blocks are stacked until the dimensions were right, and then finishing blocks (usually limestone) were the last touch. The aesthetics are much more pleasing than the step pyramid, but the construction isn't really that different.

In both cases, large quarried blocks of Tura limestone weighing a few tons are stacked in roughly pyramidal shape covering one or more burial chambers which are encased in granite. This forms a series of platforms, each smaller than the previous. In the case of the step pyramid of Djoser, this was then considered complete. However, in the case of true pyramids, smaller blocks (and sometimes rubble, depending on the economic situation at the time the pyramid is built) are placed around and on top of the platforms to form a smooth outer surface. This is then usually covered with limestone blocks that are polished to form a glossy white finish.

The Pyramid of Khufu is exactly like the other pyramids in Egypt in this respect. As the Wikipedia (www.wikipedia.org) states:

The pyramid [of Khufu] was constructed of limestone, basalt, and granite stones from two to four tonnes in weight each, adding up to a total estimated weight of some 7 million tonnes, and a volume of 2,600,600 cubic metres. It is the largest Egyptian pyramid. (The Great Pyramid of Cholula, in Mexico is larger in volume.) When originally built, the pyramid had inset facing blocks of polished limestone, creating smooth sides; they have since fallen out, or been recycled for other building projects, leaving the underlying step-pyramid structure visible.

The construction of such true pyramids was not a sudden development. After the first stepped pyramid, there were numerous abortive attempts to create a true pyramid. We can see the way the Egyptian engineers learned from trial-and-error because some of their errors still exist. For example, the ‘Bent Pyramid’ at Dahshur was started at one angle and then – once it was realised that a pyramid at this angle would bear too much weight on the burial chambers inside – was completed at a shallower angle.


The question that this begs, of course, is that if God is going to create a pyramid ex-nihilo as a sign to future generations, why would he not, for example, create one from a single solid piece of stone or gold or something conspicuous? Why would he create one that fits in with the building patterns that the Egyptians themselves use? I maintain that this question needs to be answered satisfactorily if we are to believe the claim that God created the pyramid.



My second piece of evidence for an Egyptian origin for the pyramid is the existence of the remains of building ramps, quarries and other building signs. These include (but are not limited to) holes for marker posts used to lay out the site. To quote Dr Zahi Hawass (Undersecretary of the State for the Giza Monuments and one of the world’s leading experts on the Giza site- for a brief overview of his massive list of credentials, see here (http://www.guardians.net/hawass/background.htm)):

These holes are set at regular intervals and form lines which run parallel to the sides of the pyramid. The best indication for the reason behind these holes is for stakes that carried a line used as a reference, by the builders, as they formed the base of Khufu's pyramid from blocks of limestone, or in the case of Khafre's pyramid, from granite. These fifteen-ton blocks are marked so as to define the center axis of the pyramid's faces and diagonals. There are also trenches that infer the infusion and drainage of water during and after the leveling operations.

There are not only marker-post holes, but also ramps. To quote Dr Hawass again:

During the work of relocating the Sound and Light Show cables at Giza, we were able to excavate their route beginning at the Southwest of the Great Pyramid.
Also at this time we started the re-excavation of the cemetery GIS and the restoration of the tombs there.
As was discussed above the only possible side for the erection of the ramp during the reign of Khufu was the South side. The ramp was constructed of limestone chips, gypsum, and a calcareous clay called Tafla. Due to the hardiness of the construction materials what remains of the ramp, after the Egyptians removed it to build the tombs of GIS, should still exist on the South side.
We started to remove sand for the erection of the cables North of the paved road and South of the pyramid. During the work we found a big part of the ramp used to transport the stones from the quarry to the pyramid base. This part of the ramp consisted of two walls built of stone rubble and mixed with Tafla. The area in between was filled with sand and gypsum forming the bulk of the ramp.

…and…

On the South side of the paved road, South of Khufu's pyramid, we excavated down about 2.50 meters and found another part of the ramp. This part is in line with the Eastern and Western wall and is of similar construction. This discovery proves that the ramp led from the quarry to the Southwest comer of the pyramid and was made of stone rubble and Tafla.(see plans 2,3) The ramp rises to about 30 meters above the pyramid's base at its Southwest comer. The ramp would have leaned against the pyramid's faces as they rose. Somewhat like accretion layers wrapped around the pyramid with a roadway on top. The weight of this ramp is borne by the ground around the pyramid. Traffic could move along the top of this structure as both pyramid and ramp rose in tandem. The top of the pyramid could be reached with only one and one quarter turns. The slope would rise with each turn from a reasonable 65 degrees, for the first section, to as much as 18 degrees for the last climb to the apex.

Similarly, the quarries from which the stone was cut have been thoroughly excavated. To quote Dr Hawass:

There is no evidence of quarries or ramps either on the North side of the pyramid, or on the West where tombs of the officials began to be built in year five of Khufu's reign. The same can be said for the Western tombs in regards to the length of the pyramid construction.16
On the South side of the Great Pyramid are the two boat pits which have been dated to the reign of Djedefre. The tombs built on this side are dated to the reign of Menkaure.17
According to the Egyptian pyramid complex program the South side should contain the subsidiary pyramids. It seems that the architect of the Great Pyramid was forced to set the subsidiary pyramids on the East because the South side had to be used for the construction of the ramp.
The quarry must therefore be located low on the plateau, and on the South side of the Great Pyramid, and this is where it is found. The quarry bears testimony to it’s ability to supply nicely layered stones which were suitable for the pyramid's large building blocks.
As can be seen from the above quote, not only have the quarries been found – they have been found in exactly the place that we would expect if the pyramid was built during the reign if Khufu. Once again, if God created the pyramid – why would he need to mark it out with posts first and to quarry stone and drag it up ramps? All of this is exactly what we would expect to see if the pyramid was built by Egyptians – so WT must answer the riddle of why God would use such crude methods if we are to believe the claim that he built the pyramid.



My third piece of evidence is that of the worker camps. Unless otherwise noted, all quotes here are also from the descriptions of the official excavations by the Egyptian Department of Antiquities headed by Dr Hawass.
It is currently estimated that the pyramid was built over a period of approximately 20 years by a workforce of 20,000 workers. Some of these were seasonal laborers and others were full time artisans and craftsmen:
From hieroglyphic inscriptions and graffiti we infer that skilled builders and craftsmen probably worked year round at the pyramid construction site. Peasant farmers from the surrounding villages and provinces rotated in and out of a labor force organized into competing gangs with names such as "friends of Khufu" and" Drunkards of Menkaure". Each gang was divided into groups, Egyptologists call phyles (the Greek word for tribe). There were five phyles, whose names, always the same in each gang, bear same resemblance to ancient Egyptian neuitical terms such as "great "or starboard and green or prow. Each phyle was divided into groups of ten to 20 men, each named with single hieroglyphs some times representing ideas such as "life"," endurance" and "perfection".
Note again, support for Khufu as the patron of the pyramid – one of the work gangs was named as his friends.
Note that not only the villages that the workers lived in has been excavated…
During the construction of the sewage system of the village of Nazlet-el Samman and other villages located down the foot of the great pyramid, we found a large Old Kingdom settlement about 3 km square.
We recorded a continuous layer of mud-brick buildings starting about 165 feet south of the valley Temple of Khufu and extending about 1 mile to the south. Among the artifacts are thousands of fragments of every day pottery and bread molds, cooking pots, beer jars and trays for sifting grain and flour. Medium to large pieces of charcoal suggest that trees once grew here. Also domesticated animal bones, such as beef, pork and sheep with butchers marks on them. The workmen camp should be located on this site.
…but also the tombs of the artisans and more important craftsmen…
On April 14, 1990, the chief of the pyramid guards, Mohammed Abdel Razek, reported to me that an American tourist was thrown from her horse when the animal stumbled on a previously unknown mud-brick wall. Located to the south of the wall of the crow.
The mud-brick wall turned out to be a tomb, with a long vaulted chamber and two false doors through which the dead could commune with the living and receive offerings.
The lower part of the cemetery contains about 600 such graves for workmen and 30 larger tombs, perhaps for overseers. The tombs come in a variety of forms: stepped domes, beehives, and gabled roofs. Two to six feet high, the domes covered simple rectangular grave pits, following the configuration of the pyramids in an extremely simplified form. One small tomb featured a miniature ramp leading up and around its dome. Could the builder have intended it to represent the construction ramp of a royal pyramid? Other tombs resemble miniature mastabas with tiny courtyards and stone false doors with the names and titles of the deceased inscribed on them.
Titles such as" overseer of the side of the pyramid,"" director of the draftsmen," "overseer of masonry," "director of workers," and "inspector of the craftsmen" are another indication that those buried in the upper part of the cemetery were of higher status than the people buried below. Perhaps the most important title we found was the "director for the king's work." I believe some of these are the tombs of the artisans who designed and decorated the Giza pyramid complexes and the administrators who oversaw their construction. We need, however, to analyze the names, pottery, and decoration of the tombs further to be sure they date to the time when the Giza pyramids were being built.
As can be seen from the above quotes, there was a thriving community of building workers and engineers present at Giza during Khufu’s reign who claimed in their inscriptions to be the builders of the pyramid.
WT needs to provide a convincing scenario for why these people were lying about being the pyramid builders for his claims of divine origin for the pyramid to hold water.



My final piece of evidence for the Egyptian origin of the pyramid is the inscription of his cartouche inside it. To quote from an Egyptian Monuments website (www.egyptsites.co.uk):
At the top of the gallery another very low passage leads to the room known as the King's Chamber, built entirely of red granite, where Khufu's uncovered sarcophagus still stands against the western wall. The room is undecorated and contains no inscriptions, so how do we know who was the owner of the pyramid? The weight of the masonry above the ceiling of this chamber is relieved by five compartments covering the same area as the floor below. These are believed to have been constructed to relieve the stress of the enormous mass of stone above the burial chamber. The highest of these chambers has a cantilevered roof, and it was in this chamber that the early excavators Vyse and Perring found a graffiti left by the pyramid workmen, which included the cartouche of Khnum-Khuf (Khufu).

These graffiti from the quarry workers are a common feature of Pyramid blocks and are found on blocks from most of the pyramids. They were chiefly marks on the blocks to indicate the destination of the block once it left the quarry.

It is widely claimed on the Internet and in popular books on ‘Alternative Pyramidology’ that the cartouche of Khufu was a fake, put there by Howard Vyse – the archaeologist who found them in 1837. This claim is often not referenced., but in the places where references are given they usually point back to Erich von Daniken, Colin Wilson, Graham Hancock, Robert Bauval and via them to Zecharia Sitchin. The theory that this cartouche was faked originated with Sitchin – who was promoting his theory that the pyramid was built by aliens. Martin Stower, form the University of Liverpool, in his article Forging The Pharoah’s Name (normally here ( http://martins.castlelink.co.uk/pyramid/forging/) but temporarily unavailable) refutes Sitchin’s claim as follows:
In 1837, even Samuel Birch [Vyse's assistant and Sitchin's assumed forger] couldn't have faked the quarry marks. They have features which even experts didn't understand, but which have become clear since. In fact they fit in perfectly with later discoveries and later analyses.
As can be seen – to inscribe the cartouche that is claimed to be a fake, the forger would have needed intimate knowledge of hieroglyphics that was available to the Egyptians, but has not been available for over 1800 years – and is only now being rediscovered.
Again, the onus is on WT to demonstrate why, if the pyramid was created by God and is not connected to Khufu, God would need to use blocks of stone to build the pyramid and would leave quarry marks on them indicating that they are for the pyramid of Khufu.

In conclusion: in this round, I have presented four pieces of compelling evidence that all lead to the same inescapable conclusion – The ‘Great Pyramid’ at Giza was built by the Egyptians under the instruction of Pharaoh Khufu during the 26th century BCE. I have also demonstrated that my opponent’s claim that God created the pyramid as an unchanging way of answering claims that the Bible has changed is not logical, since the pyramid has also changed and since there are far greater criticisms of the Bible than it’s possible textual corruption.

[Dean Anderson]

Welcome to round three of the debate. In this round, I will be analysing and attempting to refute the claims that my opponent made in round 2.

However – before I do, I need to present some information.

The majority of my refutation references the work of Sir Flinders Petrie. Therefore I am going to give a few biographical notes on him and on his work in order to demonstrate that he is a recognised expert in the field and thus why I am not committing an ‘Appeal To Authority’ fallacy by citing his work.

Petrie is rightly credited as the ‘Father of Modern Archaeology’. He pioneered the use of the scientific method and detailed surveying techniques in the field of archaeology – indeed, whenever you see modern archaeologists methodically and meticulously sifting through layers of earth and carefully marking and recording the location of each find they are using his methodology. Petrie spent three years carefully surveying and measuring the pyramids at Giza, and wrote a book detailing this monumental work. The resulting book Pyramids and Temples of Gizeh (1883) was the first of the hundreds of books, papers and pamphlets that he wrote on Egyptian Archaeology. Copyright has now expired on this book, and the text is available here (http://touregypt.net/petrie/index.htm). In the book, he meticulously details his methods as well as his results.

Further biographical details of Petrie are available here (http://www.petrie.ucl.ac.uk/william_flanders_petrie.php).

I will now go through the ‘layers’ of evidence presented by my opponent, in the original order of presentation (with a couple of exceptions where something is mentioned in passing by my opponent in one layer but not developed until a later layer).

Layer 1 - Symbolism

Layer one of my opponent’s argument needs no refutation – indeed, it contains no arguments or data to refute! It is merely claims of symbolism.

Such claims are completely subjective. Virtually any structure or design can be made to symbolise anything if one tries.

To supply an example, I will now demonstrate that the same pyramid design that my opponent claims to be symbolic of the history of humankind as told by the Bible is also equally symbolic of the history of humankind as shown by Evolutionary and historical evidence.

The long downward passage shows the decline in populations of the Great Apes, leading to eventual extinction (the pit). At point 5, we see where humans diverge from the rest of the apes, having developed our three distinguishing features – Fire Use, Language and Abstract Thought – which are symbolised by the three granite plugs separating us from the other apes.

From this point, humans have made a steady ascent as symbolised by the ascending passage – but note that the passage is only tall enough to crawl through. This perfectly symbolises humankind’s struggle to rise to dominance and achieve our intellectual potential whilst being held back by religious superstition.

The grotto (16 on my opponent’s diagram) represents the publication of Darwin’s ‘On The Origin Of Species’. Note how it has well passages leading in both directions symbolising the connection between us and the rest of the apes that he realised.

Notice also the effect this has on both our species. The rise of humans opens out into the grand gallery as we shed our superstitions and walk tall in our rationality. The apes are saved from the pit of extinction by our enlightenment as with our new-found empathy with them (and the realisation that we are apes and they are our cousins – rather than we being special creations of God and them being ‘merely’ animals put on the planet for us to do what we will with) we undertake conservation programmes to save them.

Note also the passage branching off the main human line (7->11) that stops its advance. This represents the part of humankind that rejects rationalism and still tries to live in the days of religious superstition.

Finally, we end with the King’s chamber and the Queen’s chamber – representing the two separate worlds of rationalism and religious fundamentalism that now exist in America.

As you can see – anything can be symbolised if you try hard enough. Indeed, my symbolic reading explains more features of the pyramid layout than my opponent’s does. Mine also explains the grotto in the wellshaft and the second passage leading to the queen’s chamber. Presumably, this makes it more accurate.

Layer 2 – Star Alignments

According to all the sources cited above, ONLY in 2141 BC did the light of the pole star/North star shine down to the bottom of the descending passage.

The precession of the Equinoxes is about a 26 thousand year cycle, this means that about every 2000 years the pole star/North star will change.

In 2141 BC the pole star/North star was Draconis/Dragon Star.

The precession of the Earth does indeed cause the stars to appear to rotate with a cycle of approximately 26,000 years (actually, it is closer to 25,750 years). This equates to a movement of 1degree of rotation every 71.66 years.

The claim of the pole star changing approximately every 2,000 years is quite simply wrong. This would only be the case if there were thirteen stars evenly distributed around the precessive circle at one every 27.9°. There are not.

The current pole star (Polaris) will be exactly over the pole in the year 2014CE. The previous star was Thuban (also known as Alpha Draconis). This was over the pole in approximately 2600BC – a gap of 4,600 years, not 2,000. The next star to become the pole star will be the star Vega, which will be over the pole in approximately 14,000CE – a gap of 12,000 years, not 2,000. (Astronomical data supplied by NASA (http://www-istp.gsfc.nasa.gov/stargaze/Sprecess.htm).)

Since Polaris is currently almost an exact match to the passage, about 10 years before it is in perfect pole alignment, then this shows that the star Thuban would have been almost an exact match to the passage at approximately 10 years before its alignment; which was at approximately 2,600BCE, not 2,141BCE.

The 2,141 BC claim is simply wrong. In 2141 BC, the star Thuban would be approximately 6.5° off the passage angle – easily far enough out to mess up any alleged alignment.

Since the traditional view is that the pyramid was built in the 26th – 27th century BCE, this supports the traditional view. Indeed, it is likely that when the pyramid was built the star was used as a way of sighting north.

Refer to point # 4 on the diagram. This denotes what are called the "Scored Lines" engraved upon the passage. These purposely cut lines stand out as they run contrary to the grain of the passage stones, they seem to be a marker intentionally cut into the rock.

If you project the angle of these lines out into space they will intersect Alcyone of the Pleiades.

Therefore, ONLY in 2141 BC did Draconis perfectly align with the descending passage AND Alcyone with the Scored Lines.

Unfortunately, the scored lines are not long enough to be able to accurately prove or disprove any firm astronomical alignments. Any alignment with Alcyone is equally likely to be wishful thinking, design or coincidence – especially since we are not looking for a star on a particular line of sight, only a star at a particular approximate bearing; which means that we are pretty much guaranteed to find a matching star no matter what approximate bearing we use. Besides – the observed rotation of the stars each night from an earthly viewpoint renders any such ‘alignment’ meaningless anyway.

This further evidences and reinforces the depiction of mankind under the influence of Satan on a path of destruction going to hell. Draconis/Dragon Star perfectly symbolizes Satan and the claim and message of the Bible that mankind is doomed living under the jurisdiction of Satan because of the disobedience of Adam/Eve.

Alcyone of the Pleiades, referred to in Job 38:31, represents the sweet influences of God.

I hardly need to point out that neither the alleged symbolism of Alpha Draconis (more properly called Thuban) and the alleged representation of Alcyone are merely subjective claims with no evidence. Job 38:31 does indeed mention the Pleiades constellation, but only alongside the constellation of Orion. The context of this is Yahweh saying that he can do what he likes because he is bigger and more powerful than Job. One of the examples he uses is that Job can not move the stars but he can. The Pleiades and Orion (well, actually the names that the Hebrews used to call these – ‘Kimah’ and ‘Kesil’) being mentioned as examples.

It is not necessary to refute the rest of this ‘layer’, since it all relies on the erroneous 2,141 BC date to succeed. Since the date of alignment with Thuban is 450 years previous to the date that my opponent gives, his values of 1453 BCE and 33 CE are both completely invalid.

Layer 3 - Measurements

The measurements in my opponent’s argument all rest on the definition of the ‘Sacred Inch’ and the ‘Sacred Cubit’.

He quotes Adam Rutherford as saying:

The results of the latest geodetic research since the International Geophysical Year 1957-8 reveal that the mean polar radius of the Earth, as deduced from observation of the orbits of artificial Earth satellites is 3949.9 miles. Dividing this figure by 10,000,000, the result is 25.0266 British inches (corrected to four places of decimals), the precise length of the Sacred Cubit of the Great Pyramid.

This is misleading. The ‘Sacred Cubit’ is not discovered to be 1/10,000,000 of the polar radius of the Earth, it is defined as such. The claim that the ‘Sacred Cubit’ measurement is derived from a 5 inch by 5 inch ‘boss’ in the Antechamber is in error.

This claim about the ‘boss’ was first made by Piazzi Smyth in 1860, and was thoroughly debunked by the renowned archaeologist Flinders Petrie in his book as follows:

This boss, of which so much has been made by theorists, is merely a rough projection, like innumerable others that may be seen; left originally for the purpose
of lifting the blocks. When a building was finished these bosses were knocked away (I picked up a loose one among the waste heaps at Ghizeh) and the part was dressed down and polished like the rest of the stone. It is only in unimportant parts that they are left entire. This boss on the leaf is very ill-defined, being anything between 4.7 and 5.2 [in inches] wide, and between 3.3 and 3.5 high on it's outer face.

Petrie’s refutation can easily be confirmed by viewing the aforementioned ill-defined ‘boss’. The ‘boss’ is simply not 5x5x1 inches in size, sacred or otherwise.

The ‘Sacred Cubit’ has no history before Smyth’s claims – and was made up in order to fit his theories.

Similarly, the ‘Sacred Inch’ has no history before Smyth’s book. He simply took his invented ‘Sacred Cubit’ and divided it into 25 (because it was approximately 25 British Inches) and declared the resulting measurement to be a ‘Sacred Inch’.

Layer 4 – Height of the Pyramid

My opponent bases this part of his argument (and future parts) on the following verses from Isaiah (ASV translation used)…

19:19 In that day shall there be an altar to Jehovah in the midst of the land of Egypt, and a pillar at the border thereof to Jehovah.
19:20 And it shall be for a sign and for a witness unto Jehovah of hosts in the land of Egypt; for they shall cry unto Jehovah because of oppressors, and he will send them a saviour, and a defender, and he will deliver them.

…which, he claims, has a gematric value of 5449 in the original Hebrew.

This claim is not under dispute. It may be correct or it may be wrong. Either way, it has no bearing on the argument that follows.

However, he then claims that IF the pyramid is 5449 inches tall – for the height of the pyramid to match the gematric number of the verse – then it must be significant.

There is absolutely no evidence that the pyramid is, or ever was, 5449 inches tall. The projected height (including capstone) that Petrie surveyed is 5776 inches (+/- 7 inches). The current height (with capstone missing) is 5388 inches (see Petrie’s book).

The 5449 value has been arbitrarily chosen in order to match the gematric number of the listed verses in Isaiah, never actually measured.

My opponent also finds significance in the location of the pyramid – claiming that it is in the only possible location that fulfils the criteria for the ‘object’ listed in the Isaiah verses.

However, the Isaiah verses clearly list two separate objects, not one object with a bizarre location. The verse (in all translations) claims that there will be an altar in the middle of Egypt and that there will be a pillar on Egypt’s border. These are clearly two separate structures. Neither the original Hebrew nor any translation claims that there will be a single structure that will be both on the border and in the middle. Furthermore, the pyramid is neither an altar nor a pillar – which the two structures are specified as being.

Additionally, the book of Isaiah was written in the 8th century BCE. This can be deduced from the historical elements in it. The pyramid had already been standing for 1,800 years by this time. Isaiah is talking about structures that will be built at some unspecified point in the future – not buildings that everyone has known about for nearly two millennia.

Furthermore, contrary to my opponent’s claims, Giza is not and never has been the border between Upper and Lower Egypt. That border was at Memphis, some 20 miles south of Giza. Whilst it may be claimed that 20 miles is not a great distance, it is significant when my opponent is talking about things being exact to the nearest 1/1000 of an inch.

Layer 5

The initial argument here about PI will be addressed in my response to Layer 6 where it is discussed in more detail.

In order for the pyramid to have a height of 5813 inches with sides that slope at an angle of 51°51’14.3�, it would have to have a length on each side of…

2 * (5813 / tan(51°51’14.3�)) = 9131 inches (or 760.9 feet).

This socket to socket length is simply wrong. In actual fact, the size of the pyramid base (socket to socket) was measured by Petrie as a mean of 9069 inches. The slope varies from side to side, but averages at 51°50’40�.

When these measurements are plugged into the trigonometry, the projected height of the pyramid is between 5770 and 5780 inches – hence Petrie’s figure of 5776 +/- 7.

My opponent maintains that the 5449 inch height of the pyramid is deduced from the width of the pyramid and the angle of slope. However, to do this he must subtract an unspecified ‘Rectification Factor’ of 364 inches from his already erroneous height of 5813 inches. Where the 364 inch ‘Rectification Factor’ comes from is never stated. It seems to have been calculated simply by subtracting the desired end result (5449) from the height as measured.

Since the rest of this layer depends on the erroneous measurements, it can be summarily dismissed without need of refutation – needless to say, when using the correct socket-to-socket measurements none of these ‘significant’ values appears.

Layer 6 – Evidence of PI

This argument is perhaps the simplest to refute. If the sides of the pyramid were at an angle of exactly 51°51’14.3�, then the pyramid would embody PI.

However, the sides of the pyramid are only vaguely near that angle, and vary, and so the ratio of the height to width of the pyramid is only vaguely near PI – it does not mystically contain an exact measurement for PI.

Even if the ratio of the width to the height of the pyramid were exactly PI, it would not have any significance. Such a ratio would come about naturally if, for example, a measuring wheel were used to mark out the pyramid and the wheel had a radius proportional to the desired height of the pyramid. Because of the circular marking wheel, the measurements would naturally embody PI without the people doing the measurements necessarily knowing about the PI concept.

Layer 7 – Source Measurements

Here we have a large quote from Peter LeMeseurier providing the origin for the measurements used.

In it he claims that Rutherford’s measurements are the only ones that fit together geometrically. This is wrong. For example, Petrie’s measurements (taken over a three year period, and used by archaeologists ever since) also fit together geometrically.

He also claims that when he ‘corrects’ Cole’s measurements (which lie very close to Petrie’s) then they also match Rutherfords. However, this claim cannot be seriously considered since he does not provide either:

1) Details of exactly what Cole was measuring (Masonry point-to-point? Masonry following the curve? Socket-to-socket?)

2) Details of the calculations used to convert Cole’s measurements into measurements similar to Rutherfords.

Without either of these, LeMeseurier could be giving any numbers he likes and there is no reason to trust his hidden ‘calculations’.

Indeed, said ‘calculations’ must be wrong, and I will now demonstrate why.

Even if we assume that Cole’s measurements are along the concave masonry (the least possible measurements) AND we assume that his measuring was directly from corner-to-corner rather than following the curve of the masonry (again the least possible measurements), the difference between them and the ‘corrected’ measurements is not mathematically valid.

Even if the concavity is stepped with no slopes (the method giving the longest difference between perimeter and bounding square) and the measuring technique used followed the contours of every step then at the most, the ‘corrected’ figures should be equal to the base figures plus twice the ‘concavity’. If the concavity is not ‘stepped’, but is instead smooth or curved, then the ‘corrected’ figures should be less than this.

It is not mathematically possible for the corrected figures – if corrected legitimately – to be more than the base figures plus twice the ‘concavity’, even if we are generous with our assumptions of what was measured and how it was measured. Therefore the ‘hidden’ mathematics must logically and mathematically be either wrong or invented to arrive at the figures that were desired.

Layer 8 – More LeMeseurier Measurements

1) AB represents the top of a cross-section taken through the FULL-DESIGN Pyramid at the Passage-Axis, 286.1 PI" to the east of the buildings own north-south axis ( 286.1 PI" left of center axis).
AB therefore measures 2 x 286.1 PI", or 572.2 PI".

2) Meanwhile height of AB above base GH
=5448.736 PI" geometrically.

3) But total floor-line length of lower passageways also = 5448.736 PI"

4) Combined heights of Queen's Chamber air-shaft outlets E and F in core-masonry = 2724.368 PI" + 2724.368 PI" = 5448.736 PI"

5) Combined course levels of King's Chamber air-shaft outlets C and D in core masonry = 102 courses + 101 courses = 203 courses.

6) Original height of GP's present 203rd course = 5448.736 PI"

7) Taking numbers 2, 3, 4, and 6 (above) together, it becomes clear that the GP's architect wished to emphasize that level AB was of some overriding importance, and that he therefore deliberately included the above four references to it in his design.

8) It seems logical to conclude that this level was intended to be seen as that of the GP's planned "temporary summit" - which, in the full design, would have taken the form of a square platform of side 572.2 PI" and perimeter 2288.8 PI" or 8 x 286.1 PI".

9) In the reduced design Pyramid as built, the perimeter of the summit platform (like that of each of the GP's courses) would thus have measured 286.1 PI" LESS than in the full design, or 2002.7 PI"
(7 x 286.1 PI")

10) The above facts would necessarily produce the following data for the intended full-design capstone:
Base-side = 572.2 PI" or 2 x 286.1 PI"
Base-perimeter = 2288.8 PI" or 8 x 286.1 PI"

Height = 364.2765 PI"

Slope = 51 degrees 51' 14.3"
Height of Base above GP's base = 5448.736 PI"
Number of courses above King's Chamber floor = 153

11) In the event it is clear that no such capstone was ever installed by the builders.

Diodorus Siculus, in the first century BC describes the building as apexless, yet insists that it was otherwise in perfect condition - a fact which confirms beyond all reasonable doubt that no capstone as such was even installed or cemented in place.
Looking at these measurements using the same numbering system as LeMeseurier…

1) This claim is fine. If you take a cross-section Xm from the centerline then the width of it will be 2Xm.

2) This height has been already demonstrated to be in error.

3) Once again, Rutherford’s claimed measurements are wrong. Petrie’s official survey indicates that this measurement is actually 5174 inches.

4) On the contrary, Rutherford’s measurement yet again differs from Petrie’s detailed survey. The outlets are not at the same height. Rather, they are at 2641 and 2769 inches respectively.

5) This claim is fine.

6) Again, this height has been already demonstrated to be in error.

7) Since claims 2, 3, 4 and 6 are all erroneous, no such conclusion can be made.

8, 9, 10) Given the lack of 7’s validity, these would not be sensible conclusions to draw.

11) Hopefully, my opponent will explain in a later round why the absence of a capstone in the 1st century BCE proves ‘beyond all reasonable doubt’ that there wasn’t one in the 26th century BCE.

The rest of ‘Layer 8’ relies on already refuted values, so there is no reason to address it.

Layer 9 – Sin Symbolised

Once again, an erroneous measurement is used to support an argument from symbology.

Whilst the entrance is 287 +/-8 inches from the centerline of the pyramid as measured in Petrie’s survey, the claimed capstone size is based on erroneous mathematics and the Grand Gallery measurement is also erroneous. This measurement is actually 264.1 inches, not 286.1. Unfortunately, I have no data for the pit measurement so I cannot comment on the accuracy of the one provided by my opponent.

The ‘coincidence’ of these four measurements matching is rendered meaningless by the fact that at least two of them are erroneous. Thus any ‘symbology’ of the coincidence is also rendered meaningless.

Conclusion

My opponent’s conclusion is as follows:

Peter Lemesurier, in his book, expresses intolerance of Rutherford's evangelical renderings, but he totally endorses his measurements. This is an objective assessment.

Lemesurier has proven the identical compatibility of secular surveyor J.H. Cole and Rutherford.

This equates to tri-fold evidenciary agreement.

Each layer of evidence stands on its own.

Combine the layers and we have irrefutable evidence proving the GP to be the product of the God of Isaiah.

SUPPOSE any given layer and its evidence is challenged via evidence that suggests it to be a little off.

All the other layers SAY the evidence challenging the evidence in any particular layer to be incorrect.

Each layer and its spectacular evidence guards the others from "refuting" evidence in any particular issue from being true and or dismantling the whole or any slice of the whole.

IOW, the WHOLE disproves any micro-challenge to be incorrect.

All the evidence is self-corroborating and intra-corroborating.

The God of Isaiah built the Great Pyramid, which proves that all the claims of the written word/Bible to be true.

He claims that any single layer can be challenged, and the combined weight of evidence from the other layers will nullify such a challenge.

However, I have refuted every layer – and shown them to all be dependant on the erroneous calculations and measurements found in each other. There are no independent layers left to provide support and the whole argument must come crashing down.

The claims of numerical prophecy in the pyramid are circular in the extreme. Values are arbitrarily decided in order to correspond to the numbers that the claimant wishes – and then those same values are mathematically juggled and obfuscated until the original numbers pop back out again, appearing to have been ‘coincidentally’ arrived at...

Such claims are of no more rigor than the party tricks where a member of the audience is asked to think of a number and perform mental arithmetic until the conjuror asks for the answer and ends up back with the number that was first thought of.

[WILLOWTREE]

CORRECTION:

That is the distance from point # 5 to point # 7, inch = 1 year = 33 AD death and Resurrection of Christ.

The distance from point # 5/1453 BC Exodus to point # 7/33 AD death of Christ is 1485 pyramid inches. Thus 1485 inches = 1485 years. (1 inch is subtracted for the transition from 1 BC to 1 AD)

Now: 1st Rebuttal:

Please be aware that Moderator/Nightshade did a lot of work to make my end of the debate happen. This persons voluntary dedication needs to be recognized and I am happy to be able to draw attention to it.

However, I must ask what evidence WT has to support his claim that the chief criticism of the Bible from secular sources is about text corruption and translational errors?

The above quote was offered to make light of my claim that the written source/Bible has been sufficently cast untrustworthy, which God anticipated, and therefore created a "backup" source (the GP) to corroborate the Bible.

It is a 'brute fact' ( a phrase I learned not too long ago from an atheist on this board) that is self-evident and axiomatic.

"secular" means non-religious, the reason they are non-religious is because they do not believe in the supernatural.

The most famous and reported reason for unbelief is alleged text corruption and translation errors.

This Forum, Internet Infidels, exists to disprove the Bible and argue with believers. Advertisements that appear in the top bandwith are Bible-derogatory.

My present topic, "Prophecy Fulfillment" contains endless accusations of Biblical lies that only this generation of secularists/atheists are "smart" and "sophisticated" enough to see.

Pseudo-christian Jesus Seminar: http://religion.rutgers.edu/jseminar/
exists to destroy Biblical claims and veracity under the disguise of objective scholarship.

How low for secularists to stoop and dress themselves in clerical collars and educational credentials for the single purpose of advancing naturalist/atheist worldview validation.

The DIVIDING LINE is the belief in miracles, namely the Resurrection of Christ, which the Apostle Paul says we are liars if Christ be not risen.

Imagine that; persons who claim to be christian rejecting the Resurrection of Christ ?

You can erase the known definition of "christian" (reportive and emotive) and call a rose by some other name but it is still self-evident and axiomatic: Christians believe in and testify to a Risen Saviour.

The Jesus Seminar is comprised of persons who ALL have ONE COMMON DENOMINATOR: NO BELIEF IN THE EXISTENCE OF MIRACLES.

Christianity STARTS with the CLAIM of a miracle - the Resurrection. Where are you getting your christianity from if you reject the Resurrection ?

The Jesus Seminar likes to conceal their 'a priori' starting position:

1) Any report of a miracle in the N.T. is blackballed.

Why ?

Because miracles cannot happen. Their true worldview bias is glaring. And if anyone reports a miracle then it must be bogus because miracles cannot happen. Thus the dismissal of miracle is circular based upon worldview.

2) Any quoting of the O.T. is blackballed.

3) Any prophecy is blackballed because it assumes a miracle.

4) All narratives, like the Prodigal son, is blackballed because they are the product of memory and NOBODY can remember details like that accurately. Details of what somebody thought is considered to have Divine connotations. This is called "details exclusion" and it is an old tool invented by secularists to dismiss the Bible and all of its details. The J.S. embrace the details exclusion rabidly.

After all this "objective unbiased scholarship" we have about 5 % of the N.T. left.

95 % arbitrarily tossed by the pseudo - christian J.S. - imagine that, christians who reject 95 % of the N.T. !

Here is my point:

If so called "christians" butcher the Bible THEN HOW MUCH MORE DO SECULAR SCHOLARS DO THE SAME.

The point is that the Bible/word of God has been under attack since the Garden of Eden.

[personal attack removed - NS]

The Great Pyramid, in grand fashion, pulverizes wholesale any and all "no way to know" bullshit.

The Great Pyramid corroborates the written claims found in the Bible.

The GP confirms man is on a downward path to hell.

The GP confirms the Exodus and ascent under Sinai Law.

The GP confirms the death of Christ and the age of grace.

The GP confirms the Resurrection of Christ.

The GP confirms Jesus Seminar to be boldface liars.

The GP and its internal passage system PERFECTLY depicts the claims of the written word/Bible. Those who deny this blatantly obvious visual (don't take my word for it - see for yourself) depiction PROVE they are not honest truth-seekers, but integrity-less/cannot/will not admit the wrongness of their unbelief. They prove evidence is actually irrelevant: worldview/philosophy is king.

The internal passage system of the GP and its SPECTACULAR physical visual depiction of the central claims and message of the Bible AND the refusal of opponents to admit the obvious PROVES the Romans 1 "God sense" incapacitation response of God penalizing pre-meditated rejection of Him. Either way the Bible is proven absolutely true.

The Great Pyramid's passage system visually proves the message of the Bible: Everyone is going to hell UNLESS you embrace the gospel/way of faith to relate to God and He lifts you up through the Resurrection/Well Shaft into the safety of His grace/Grand Gallery.

Has the Bible been corrupted ?

Secular hostilities spend every waking moment and all of their energy and talents into corrupting the Bible because it is contrary to their worldview.

Its MESSAGE certainly has by secular and religious alike.

The text has not and the GP corroborates this claimed fact.

Now this debate is not about the errancy (or lack of it) found in Biblical texts
Agreed.

I am not a inerrantist anyway.

This debate is about whether the GP was designed by the God of Isaiah.
If it was then the "for a sign and a witness" claim in Isaiah 19:19,20 text is self-evidently speaking about the GP and it becomes the greatest independant and objective confirmation that the written word and its claims are true.

Contradictions between the different books within the Bible.

In reality, there are none.

IF there are then it is intentional to highlight a point or argument.

A lot of descrepancies are created by translations failures.

Most "contradictions" can be attributed to the ignorance of persons who think they are born an expert in the Bible.

Obvious examples of this concern can be found in print and on the Internet at such secular Biblical criticism pages as Jim Merrit’s List of Biblical Contradictions, Dan Barker’s ‘Losing Faith In Faith: From Preacher To Atheist’ and The Skeptic’s Annotated Bible.

The links my opponent listed here I offer as proof of text corruption by secular/atheist "scholars". I did not activate the links because the titles themselves evidence my point.

It doesn't matter how many secular voices subjectively assert their personal anti-Bible bias under the guise of honest reporting - the GP and its internal passage system and the Isaiah text matching the height is brilliant Divine design which single handedly proves all these secular and pseudo-religious criticisms to be blatantly untrue and false.

How does the physical structure lie ?

Answer: Only if you deny what you see.

I have clearly pointed out the perfect passage symbolism matching the well-known claims of the Bible.

This is sledgehammer whacking you on the top of the head. I have ONLY hammered the FIRST LAYER - add all the other layers of evidence - IT IS IRREFUTABLE.

This may seem to be a pedantic point for me to be raising – especially since I am not actually arguing that the Bible is errant at this point, merely pointing out that secular critics view it that way

Once again, my opponent is waffling or confused.

How else can secular critics view the Bible ?

Is it eligible to be viewed any differently ?

As if any secular/atheist critic would ever confirm a miracle.
The conclusion is contained in the phrase "secular critic".

According to WT, the purpose of the pyramid is to serve as a confirmation of the Biblical texts that will avoid the criticism of textual corruption that the Biblical texts attract; since the pyramid – being made of stone – cannot be changed in the way that texts can be.

Absolutely correct comment reflecting my view/claims.

There are two very good reasons, though, why this view of the pyramid’s purpose is logically flawed.
Firstly, as I have shown above, the majority of criticisms of the Bible are not those of corruption. Creating a pyramid in order to counter such a minor part of Biblical criticism whilst leaving the vast majority of criticisms unanswered is not a logically sensible thing for God to do.

Doesn't matter IF YOU THINK (subjective) it is sensible - the evidence says it is a fact.

This blue box comment by opponent assumes he knows what is sensible for a God he doesn't even believe exists.

Opponent:

What is the source for your beliefs of what God thinks or does ?

Blue box comment is subjective opinion without any outside source of criteria.

Blue box comment willfully changes (corrupts) my plainly stated claim that the GP contains the central message of the Bible. How does the central message become "minor part" ?

Who said "a vast majority of criticisms" are left unanswered ?
The GP answers them all - I had to draw the line somewhere because it would be too voluminous.

Is this your "refutation" - your subjective secular worldview of what is sensible ?

How is it that you momentarily accept the existence of God so you can speak your secular subjective views through Him ?

The truth is that it is perfectly sensible to create an objective witness to confirm written text. No rational person can deny the concept to be non-sensical.

The smooth outer casing is now missing, as is the capstone

Not in dispute. My evidence laboriously covered this.

If the pyramid were to be an unchanging monument that embodied sacred measurements in its dimensions then it should still have the same dimensions as when it was built.

My evidence proves it does.

The stripped off casing stones revealed the 203 courses and side concavity.

AB = 365.242 Sacred Cubits (SC = 25 PI") = number of days in Solar Tropical Year.
AEFB = 365.256 SC = number of days in Sidereal Year
AbB = 365.259 SC = number of days in Anomalistic Year ("b" obscured between "w" and "x")
These amazing in-built measurement facts would never be known unless casing stones were stripped. No ancient human civilization had this knowledge.

The above excerpt of evidence was part of a text which the accompanying diagram showed these discoveries.

The point is that the outer casing stones and their original dimensions can and have been projected and determined.

My opponents point about lost dimensions is proven false.

Without the stripping the concealed marvels would never be known. Seems the Architect had it all planned - unless of course you choose to ignore all of this.

Millennia of erosion and acts of vandalism and attempted tomb-robbing over the years have changed the dimensions from what they were when it was built. This is crucially important when we are talking about dimensions that need to be measured correctly to within a fraction of an inch in order to be significant.

This is a bare assertion - show me lost dimensions ?

My evidence clearly shows the "no way to know for sure" to be false.

My evidence shows how all the measurements have been determined and how all of them are confirmed.

My evidence shows how 1/2 inch proves the height to be 5449 PI"

The totality of the height evidence is voluminous and irrefutable - already posted.

I predict opponent will deny its existence because to recognize any of it is to accept its validity because it is irrefutable.

The first piece of evidence that I wish to present is the similarity between the structure and design of the pyramid with the other pyramids in Egypt.

My opponent, after making this comment, goes on to make the argument that all the Pyramids are basically the same - seen one - you've seen them all.

The only thing similar is the general outer size of the 2nd and 3rd Pyramids to the Great Pyramid.

Go here and see how the GP is the only Pyramid with substantial interior passages and the only Pyramid with ascending passages:

http://www.egyptarchive.co.uk/his_html/smyth_4.html

http://www.egyptarchive.co.uk/his_html/smyth_5.html

The Great Pyramid is called as such because it is the only Wonder of the World in existence.

The GP is built incorporating the pi angle - the ONLY Pyramid in the world built at this angle (51degrees 51' 14.3")

When did modern man discover pi ? (Middle Ages)

The 2nd and 3rd Pyramids all have capstones and the GP never had one.

My opponents argument here is one of pure assumption:

"The GP is located in Egypt - therefore Egyptians must of built it"

The Suez Canal is in Egypt and Egyptians didn't build it.

The physical evidence I have posted says ancient human beings, without modern machinery and scientific knowledge could not possibly build the GP.
North African sun worshippers did not have genius scientific knowledge and ability.

From http://www.geoman.com/jim/pyramid.html

This excerpt is from a non-supernaturalist. I am posting the site because it gives an excellent complete overview of the history of the Pyramid. No one site agrees with any other. The purpose here is to establish that the Pyramid contains impossible evidence of knowledge that ancient egyptians/humans did not have YET the author arbitrarily concludes they must of built it anyway and somehow.

The boldface in the text evidences that Egyptian writings and the Pyramid's sophistication are incongruent.

This secular author concludes that priests concealed the secret know- how of which he admits there is no evidence.

EXCERPT:

Indeed, one could even devise a thought experiment in which it is assumed that the first rule among those who receive initiation into the highest knowledge is that the knowledge may not be written down explicitly. This knowledge might be maintained by an initiate priesthood who would continuously evaluate the trustworthiness of initiates, including pharaohs. The high priests might then initiate each individual only to the degree to which they demonstrated their capacity and dedication to maintaining the integrity of the secret. At first glance this may seem an absurd proposition, but it may fit the observed phenomena better than any other explanation. Particularly where we do already know that someone maintained a great deal of knowledge over the span of long intermediate periods between dynasties, which only flower during certain phases. Such a model might explain how, or why, the evidence we do find in texts is frequently inferior to the sophistication of the knowledge implicitly embodied in the geometry of the architecture. I am not arguing that this can actually be proven, or even that it is rigorously correct in all cases, but I do suspect that the depth and sophistication of all dynasties was not equal, and that this may be due in part to variations in the degree to which different pharaohs, or lines of pharaohs, inspired the confidence of the perennial priesthood who may well have been the seat of real knowledge. END EXCERPT

The question that this begs, of course, is that if God is going to create a pyramid ex-nihilo as a sign to future generations, why would he not, for example, create one from a single solid piece of stone or gold or something conspicuous?

My opponent is suffering from sudden common sense disappearance syndrome.

How long would a Pyramid made of gold last ?

How is the GP not conspicuous ?

It is the 8th Wonder of the World.

It incorporates modern scientific knowledge yet it was built at least 4500 years ago.

I am flabbergasted.

Again, opponent is arguing subjectively, in behalf of God.

The claim of the Bible is that it contains the eternal word of God and it contains what God wants known.

Where does the Bible say what opponent is arguing ?

What is opponents source for ideas about God ?

As can be seen from the above quote, not only have the quarries been found – they have been found in exactly the place that we would expect if the pyramid was built during the reign if Khufu.

I never argued WHEN the GP was actually built - I only argue who the Architect was.

If it was built during Khufu's reign - maybe - maybe not - nobody knows for sure.

Once again, if God created the pyramid – why would he need to mark it out with posts first and to quarry stone and drag it up ramps?

Opponent assumes GP was built by mortal humans without machiney or know -how.

This is an assumption because the alternative is not an option.

I never argued the GP was built using ramps - 70 ton blocks cannot be moved and positioned using stone-age ramps.

Only Egyptologists/naturalists assert egyptians built the GP using RAMPS !

Common sense says this is impossible.

According to Flinders Petrie, famed Egyptologist, the GP consists of 2.3 million stones, each weighing an average 16 - 24 tons.

Only cranes could move such immense weights.

Cranes didn't exist 4500 years ago.

The only reason such preposterous ideas that ramps and inlcine planes were used to build the 8th Wonder of the World is because THEY DON'T KNOW HOW !

This is the whole issue.

Allegiance to worldview dogma asserts any ancient human being could build the GP.

Camel riding North African sun worshippers could not of built a genius scientific structure that incorporates the dimensions of the Earth.

How did any egyptian lift a 70 ton block ?

If you just say so.

The faith it takes to believe this [comment removed - NS] and you all could discover God because the Bible says faith directed at Him He will honor and reveal Himself.

so WT must answer the riddle of why God would use such crude methods if we are to believe the claim that he built the pyramid.

I never argued in favor of these crude methods.

My agrument is that God designed the GP and supernatural help did the actual building BECAUSE THERE IS NO OTHER PLAUSIBLE EXPLANATION.
The evidence I have posted says the GP is of Divine origin, which by implication says the common egyptologist is full of shit.

Then opponent cites worker evidence.

Opponent ASSUMES they built the GP - how Pervy ?

Then opponent claims scant red paint writings to evidence Khufu built the GP.

IF they are genuine then it only evidences WHEN the GP was built.

But the GP, unlike EVERY other pyramid did not contain ANY writings on the inside - unprecedented for a land covered in heiroglyphics.

But above the Kings Chamber about 5 sets of red paint markings were found on various levels.

According to Peter Lemesurier "Decoding the Great Pyramid" [1977, 2000][London]

"KHUFU" = KHFH

It is very similar to the Hebrew consonant name of God: "YHWH"

THUS, the Architect devised a genius way of recording His signature upon His "statue", "painting", "monument".

IF "YHWH" would of been found as the only writing within the GP, THEN it would be instantly dismissed as a forgery/hoax.

But the Architect obviously found a way to sign His "painting": KHFH = YHWH.

IF anything, the GP was built during Khufu's reign - point conceded.

But no ancient human had the ability to build such a wonder - this is the crux of the whole mystery.

God piggybacked with Khufu as a way to sign His name.

[KnightWhoSaysNi]

Hi folks,

In future statements, please try to keep discussion of Biblical reliablilty, the Jesus Seminar, etc... to an absolute minimum (preferably, not at all). Remember that the focus of the debate is on the 'Great Pyramid.'

WILLOWevcTREE, I would also ask that you keep future statements to a more civil tone. Please refrain from speculating on your opponent's (or the audience's) motivations or making various forms of invective.

Thank you for your consideration,

Jason

[Dean Anderson]

Welcome to round 4 of this debate. In this final detailed round (barring the conclusion), I will be addressing the criticisms that my opponent made about my initial arguments (in Round 2) for an Egyptian construction of the pyramid under the patronage of Pharaoh Khufu.

1) The logicality of God’s motive for creating the pyramid

I will ignore the attacks on secular Bible study and conspiracy theories about the Jesus Seminar since they are not germane to the subject of this debate.

However, I will draw to the attention of the audience the following from my opponent, since it is relevant:

There are two very good reasons, though, why this view of the pyramid’s purpose is logically flawed.
Firstly, as I have shown above, the majority of criticisms of the Bible are not those of corruption. Creating a pyramid in order to counter such a minor part of Biblical criticism whilst leaving the vast majority of criticisms unanswered is not a logically sensible thing for God to do.

Doesn't matter IF YOU THINK (subjective) it is sensible - the evidence says it is a fact.

This blue box comment by opponent assumes he knows what is sensible for a God he doesn't even believe exists.

Opponent:

What is the source for your beliefs of what God thinks or does ?

Blue box comment is subjective opinion without any outside source of criteria.

Blue box comment willfully changes (corrupts) my plainly stated claim that the GP contains the central message of the Bible. How does the central message become "minor part" ?

Who said "a vast majority of criticisms" are left unanswered ?
The GP answers them all - I had to draw the line somewhere because it would be too voluminous.

Is this your "refutation" - your subjective secular worldview of what is sensible ?

How is it that you momentarily accept the existence of God so you can speak your secular subjective views through Him ?

The truth is that it is perfectly sensible to create an objective witness to confirm written text. No rational person can deny the concept to be non-sensical.

My opponent here asks me how I can momentarily accept the existence of God in order to determine what is or is not a sensible thing for him to do. The answer to this is - naturally – that I can look at the hypothetical situation that God exists in order to look at what would be logical for him to do if this situation were true.

Of course, it can be argued that God is not bound by our petty mortal concepts of logic. However, my opponent backs himself into a corner if he uses this tactic since if God does not behave in a logical manner, then my opponent’s own claims that it was logical for God to create the pyramid are invalid and we have no reason to believe that God would do such a thing.

If I might bring a particular portion of the above quotation to the audience’s attention:

Who said "a vast majority of criticisms" are left unanswered ?
The GP answers them all - I had to draw the line somewhere because it would be too voluminous.

My opponent here is making the completely unsubstantiated claim that the pyramid design answers all criticisms of the Bible. He provides no evidence, stating the reason that there is not room to provide all the evidence. I cannot accept this claim without evidence, so I ask my opponent specifically to provide evidence for the following three criticisms (one from each of the categories that I listed – none of which are issues of textual corruption):

1) Where in the pyramid design does it answer the Biblical criticism that the global flood is nowhere supported in the geological or historical records?

2) Where in the pyramid design does it answer the Biblical criticism that Judas dies twice in two different manners?

3) Where in the pyramid design does it answer the Biblical criticism that God’s slaying of the Egyptian firstborn was immoral according to God’s own commandments?


2) The pyramid not being the ‘unchanging’ monument that God would use

My opponent responds to my pointing out of the fact that the pyramid is not the same as when it was built by denying it:

If the pyramid were to be an unchanging monument that embodied sacred measurements in its dimensions then it should still have the same dimensions as when it was built.

My evidence proves it does.

[…]

The above excerpt of evidence was part of a text which the accompanying diagram showed these discoveries.

The point is that the outer casing stones and their original dimensions can and have been projected and determined.

My opponents point about lost dimensions is proven false.

Without the stripping the concealed marvels would never be known. Seems the Architect had it all planned - unless of course you choose to ignore all of this.

As can be seen, my opponent is contradicting himself here. He first claims that the pyramid hasn’t changed – and then claims that we can ‘project’ and ‘determine’ the ‘original dimensions’. This proves my point exactly. If the pyramid was intact (which it obviously isn’t – as can be seen by a cursory glance at it) then we would not need to ‘project’ or ‘determine’ anything. We would simply be able to measure the dimensions.

If that were the case, there could be no ambiguity in determining the ‘original’ dimensions since they would be still there to be measured. Since my opponent is claiming that God’s reason for building the pyramid is to avoid ambiguity, it would appear to be very incompetent of him to allow it to be damaged and eroded – thus introducing the very ambiguity that he is trying to avoid as different people then ‘project’ back to the original dimensions and get different results.


3) Similarity To Other Pyramids

My opponent claims:
The only thing similar is the general outer size of the 2nd and 3rd Pyramids to the Great Pyramid.

Of course, my opponent is here completely ignoring the facts I presented namely that:

1) The internal composition of Egypt’s pyramids is identical from the earliest step pyramid to the latest of the true pyramids.

2) The materials used to build the Pyramid of Khufu are identical to those used to build the other pyramids.

These (and other) similarities are not addressed by my opponent – who simply chooses to ignore them and claim that the only similarity is in general outer size.

The GP is built incorporating the pi angle - the ONLY Pyramid in the world built at this angle (51degrees 51' 14.3")

When did modern man discover pi ? (Middle Ages)

Although I have already addressed this point once, I will return to it here.

The Egyptians knew of PI. Their value for it was 256/81 (Sources: Richard J. Gillings, "Mathematics in the Time of the Pharaohs"; Peter Beckman, "A History of Pi� ). However, I have already demonstrated that it was not necessary for them to have this knowledge in order for the ratio of height to width in the pyramid to be a multiple of PI. All it would take would be for the width to be measured out using a measuring wheel that has a radius proportional to the desired height.

The 2nd and 3rd Pyramids all have capstones and the GP never had one.

My opponent has yet to provide any evidence for this unsubstantiated assertion.

The question that this begs, of course, is that if God is going to create a pyramid ex-nihilo as a sign to future generations, why would he not, for example, create one from a single solid piece of stone or gold or something conspicuous?

My opponent is suffering from sudden common sense disappearance syndrome.

How long would a Pyramid made of gold last ?

If a pyramid of pure gold was created by God – and he wanted it to last forever – then it would last forever. Unless my opponent is saying that God in his infinite power can’t protect a lump of gold from thieves?

Such a blatantly miraculous item would make a far better sign than a pyramid that is pretty much exactly the same in external design and in materials as all the other pyramids around it – only very slightly bigger.

3) Construction Methods

Once again, if God created the pyramid – why would he need to mark it out with posts first and to quarry stone and drag it up ramps?

Opponent assumes GP was built by mortal humans without machiney or know -how.

This is an assumption because the alternative is not an option.

I never argued the GP was built using ramps - 70 ton blocks cannot be moved and positioned using stone-age ramps.

Yet another unsubstantiated assertion – my opponent provides no evidence that the Egyptians of 2,600BCE were a stone-age people with no technological know-how. All the archaeological evidence suggests that they were a sophisticated bronze-age culture with expert knowledge of architecture and masonry.

Only Egyptologists/naturalists assert egyptians built the GP using RAMPS !

Common sense says this is impossible.

Unfortunately, ‘common’ sense is subjective and often unreliable. Common sense tells us that the Earth is stationary and the sun moves around it rising and setting each day – after all, we don’t feel the Earth move, and the sun visibly moves across the sky.

According to Flinders Petrie, famed Egyptologist, the GP consists of 2.3 million stones, each weighing an average 16 - 24 tons.

Actually, Petrie gives the average weight as 2 ½ tons, not 16-24 tons. (Source: Flinders Petrie: “The Pyramids and Temples of Gizeh�)


The only reason such preposterous ideas that ramps and inlcine planes were used to build the 8th Wonder of the World is because THEY DON'T KNOW HOW !

That, of course, and the fact that the ramps are still there and have been excavated – a fact that my opponent has not addressed.

My agrument is that God designed the GP and supernatural help did the actual building BECAUSE THERE IS NO OTHER PLAUSIBLE EXPLANATION.

Yet another unsupported assertion. My opponent provides absolutely no evidence for this.

Where are the Egyptian documents talking about their surprise as a pyramid is miraculously built by supernatural means before their eyes?

Why did the Egyptians build massive ramps from the quarry to the pyramid if the stones were moved there by supernatural means – so the ramps were completely unnecessary?

4) Worker Camps

Then opponent cites worker evidence.

Opponent ASSUMES they built the GP - how Pervy ?

I make no claim to know exactly how the workers built the pyramid, only that the evidence indicates that they did. Unlike the Egyptian artisans, I am not an expert in civil engineering logistics.

However, I must point out that my opponent here has completely ignored the evidence presented.

Remains of worker camps for thousands of workers have been excavated. Documentation at these sites names the work gangs, their leaders, and details various pyramid building tasks that they were assigned to. My opponent has not given any evidence or argument as to why these should exist if the pyramid was built by supernatural means.

What did all those workers do for all those years if they weren’t building the pyramid?

Why did they all lie and claim to have been building the pyramid if they were not actually doing so?

5) Khufu’s Cartouche


"KHUFU" = KHFH

It is very similar to the Hebrew consonant name of God: "YHWH"

THUS, the Architect devised a genius way of recording His signature upon His "statue", "painting", "monument".

IF "YHWH" would of been found as the only writing within the GP, THEN it would be instantly dismissed as a forgery/hoax.

But the Architect obviously found a way to sign His "painting": KHFH = YHWH.

The hieroglyphs that represent Khufu’s name in his cartouche do not represent K.H.F.H. This claim is simply wrong.

They are (and I will unfortunately have to describe them since there are no Unicode hieroglyph characters)…

X (circle with three bars)*. W (chick). F (horned snake). W (chick).

(A photograph and a graphical representation of Khufu’s cartouche can be found on this (http://www.neferchichi.com/khufu.html) webpage.)

*Note that the X is pronounced like the German ch (as in the name Bach).

Since we have no vowel information available (because vowels are not written in hieroglyphic scripts) common convention is to insert a nominal ‘e’ after each consonant. This gives us…

Xewefewe or Chewefewe

…which is commonly written and pronounced Khufu. Note that the Egyptians may have actually pronounced it with entirely different vowel sounds (for example ‘Khawiafowa’ or ‘Chiewefiawe’). An example of this was done in the case of Rameses. Although we know him as Rameses - from the hieroglyphs R (sun), M (falcon), S (crook), S (crook) - it has recently become apparent from mentions of his name in other scripts that the R.M.S.S. cartouche should be pronounced Riamasessi and not Rameses. Indeed, the Egyptians often referred to him by the shortened form ‘Sessi’.

Unfortunately for my opponent, X.W.F.W. in hieroglyphs bears absolutely no relationship to Y.H.W.H. in the Hebrew script – either physically or phonetically.

6) Summary

So, in summary, my opponent has simply ignored all the evidence that I have presented.

His ‘refutation’ of the similarity to other Egyptian pyramids is to deny that the similarity (which can easily be seen by anyone who looks at photographs of them) in structure exists.

His ‘refutation’ of the ramps and other construction paraphernalia that have been excavated is to ignore the fact that they physically exist and to assert that they are not necessary since God created the pyramid via supernatural means.

His ‘refutation’ of the evidence of the Egyptian work gangs and their documented tasks as part of the building process is to ignore it completely.

His ‘refutation’ of the evidence of Khufu’s cartouche was to assert (via an incorrect transliteration) that although it said ‘Khufu’ it actually meant ‘Yahweh’.

I maintain that my opponent has not successfully refuted any of the evidence indicating that the Pyramid of Khufu was built using mundane methods by the Egyptians under his patronage.

[WILLOWTREE]

Regarding the Layer 1 evidence of interior passage system perfectly matching the central claims of the Bible:

The passage floor-plan, its physical layout, via the visual imagery, perfectly reflects the message of the Bible.

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